When the World Stopped Making Sense [ A 480 Migrational Period Mod]

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ekorovin

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is a very good point. As are there Greeks still left in Ukraine, Albania and Syria
But that's not a point in your favour. Greeks in those regions, they are, well, Greek. They retained their religion, sometimes their language, they are culturally distinct from their surroundings. When future archeologist will excavate Urum village in modern-day Stavropol region of Russia, he'll see, that it's distinct from neigboring Russian or Karachay villages. He'll see distinct names on graveyard stones, texts written in different language and countless other things. There are no such things to indicate that Massilians were Greek.
 

Mathrim

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That is a very good point. As are there Greeks still left in Ukraine, Albania and Syria

An (angry) friend of mine points out that they're Greek Orthodox Arabs, so they aren't Greek-speaker, they only follow the Greek rites. It's okay XVG, calm down now.
 

ekorovin

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An (angry) friend of mine points out that they're Greek Orthodox Arabs, so they aren't Greek-speaker, they only follow the Greek rites. It's okay XVG, calm down now.
You meen in Syria? My Greeks in Russia are as Greek as it gets.
 

Erik W

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Xvg?
 

shlin28

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Just a quick comment about religion: monophysites and miaphysites in this period are actually the same. No contemporaries called themselves that of course, both are just modern names, but the modern consensus is that it is more accurate to call them miaphysites ("mia" means one, whilst "mono" means only, which is an inaccurate account of their beliefs and a belief they do not hold). History books before 2000 all use the term monophysite, but Paradox actually got it right in making miaphysitism a distinct branch of Christianity, whilst monophysitism is considered a heresy by everyone involved. In the fifth century though, miaphysitism is definitely the word to use to describe the faith of average Egyptian/some Arab clients of the Romans. It's actually more complicated than that, but the CK2 province model can only do so much :(
 

Mr. Capiatlist

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Moreover, Greeks in Syria, Ukraine, and Russia are nowhere close to representing any sort of majority on a province-wide system. If you could give cultures to baronies it would be understandable, but as it stands the presence of minorities can only be accounted for using a province modifier system (which can have a varying level of complexity and accuracy) or the presence of some odd-cultured characters who'd die out quick.
 

loup99

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Is Massalia= Marseille in roman/english? It should in that case absolutely NOT be Greek. Yes, it was founded by phoenicians but in 480 it was far from Greek and Romans had controlled it for hundreds of years. At this point of time that city was controlled by germanic pagans and there is no need for a separate culture.
 

Ofaloaf

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Is Massalia= Marseille in roman/english?
The Romans used the Greek name for the city, but then again they used Greek names for a lot of cities-- like Ancona, which was colonized even more recently by the Greeks than Marseilles and yet certainly was not Greek by the 6th century AD.
 

loup99

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The Romans used the Greek name for the city, but then again they used Greek names for a lot of cities-- like Ancona, which was colonized even more recently by the Greeks than Marseilles and yet certainly was not Greek by the 6th century AD.

Just wanted to make that sure as my (latin)/ english is not perfect, especially not on french city names as I even abroad use the Franch names for these.
 

Erik W

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Is Massalia= Marseille in roman/english? It should in that case absolutely NOT be Greek. Yes, it was founded by phoenicians but in 480 it was far from Greek and Romans had controlled it for hundreds of years. At this point of time that city was controlled by germanic pagans and there is no need for a separate culture.

If you´re suggesting that Massalia should be Germanic, you´re way off. Whether they were Romans or Greeks, that can be argued about forever, but they WERE DEFINETLY NOT GERMANICS
 

loup99

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If you´re suggesting that Massalia should be Germanic, you´re way off. Whether they were Romans or Greeks, that can be argued about forever, but they WERE DEFINETLY NOT GERMANICS

No, absolutely not germanic! I just said that Marseille was at the epoque of migration and under it's control of Germanic pagans not greek.
 

Mr. Capiatlist

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If you´re suggesting that Massalia should be Germanic, you´re way off. Whether they were Romans or Greeks, that can be argued about forever, but they WERE DEFINETLY NOT GERMANICS
I think that was a point to how much had changed, not that it needed a new culture (as evidenced by "there is no need for a separate culture").
 

loup99

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I think that was a point to how much had changed, not that it needed a new culture (as evidenced by "there is no need for a separate culture").

Exactly that.
 

Ofaloaf

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Honestly, it's just that there seems to be a little too much 'looking back' with the mod at the moment-- there's a lot of stuff that happened after 480 AD which really ought to be implemented and sorted out before revivals of Diadochi Bactria and Greek colonization of Europe are looked into. The Avars, the Slavic migrations and the Rise of Islam are Big Things of the Early Middle Ages (Islam's rise even sometimes being used to mark the final end of Antiquity) and seeing them done and sorted out would be quite comforting, as someone interested in the period and in this mod.
 

loup99

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The looking back is only a paranthese and there are a lot of discussion regarding the Rise Of Islam and Slavic Migration already. What I think think the focuse should be know is: , as stated before, the possibilty to have things that happened historically close to the start date being able to happen, while keeping it dynamic, model the trasition between feudalization and centralization and how cultures and melting pots will be handled. Personally I think that what happened with celts and christianity in Britain and the situation in France with the Franks and the schism and conversion of germanic pagans to christendom are also important events during this timeframe.

I can, and you should probably be able too, see and know in these forums that the rise of islam and slavic migration (and migration in general) are done. Of couse it is only the base and can always be improved but it is not completely untouched. Other things that have been done by the main authour and various contriburtors are: dejure overhauls of certain areas, partial integration of VIET, addition of councils for christendom and flavour events for different religions.

It is of course also "up to" Enlil to make a decision on what is the priority or not for the mod. But I'm sure that if you come with feedback on what he posts about the mod and with suggestions on flavour and just general stuff during this timeframe, he will listen to it and try to do his best to make the mod better. :happy:
 
Last edited:

Frednutts

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Honestly, it's just that there seems to be a little too much 'looking back' with the mod at the moment-- there's a lot of stuff that happened after 480 AD which really ought to be implemented and sorted out before revivals of Diadochi Bactria and Greek colonization of Europe are looked into. The Avars, the Slavic migrations and the Rise of Islam are Big Things of the Early Middle Ages (Islam's rise even sometimes being used to mark the final end of Antiquity) and seeing them done and sorted out would be quite comforting, as someone interested in the period and in this mod.

Here, here. More work needs to be done in laying out the foundation for the commonplace, everyday localisation and flavour of the mod then the special, once in a dozen games, events and decisions.
 

loup99

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Here, here. More work needs to be done in laying out the foundation for the commonplace, everyday localisation and flavour of the mod then the special, once in a dozen games, events and decisions.

Just made a relatively long post about that. Flavour has been made and if you have more suggestions feel free to come with them here.
 

Erik W

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Honestly, it's just that there seems to be a little too much 'looking back' with the mod at the moment-- there's a lot of stuff that happened after 480 AD which really ought to be implemented and sorted out before revivals of Diadochi Bactria and Greek colonization of Europe are looked into. The Avars, the Slavic migrations and the Rise of Islam are Big Things of the Early Middle Ages (Islam's rise even sometimes being used to mark the final end of Antiquity) and seeing them done and sorted out would be quite comforting, as someone interested in the period and in this mod.

Here, here. More work needs to be done in laying out the foundation for the commonplace, everyday localisation and flavour of the mod then the special, once in a dozen games, events and decisions.

Which we have all done and discussed previously in this thread. We have implemented all of these things (I think) into the mod and now, we´re just trying to figure out what we have forgotten. There of my suggestions regarding Bactria and the Massalian Republic

Edit: Please, feel free to come with more suggestions, but please, read through the thread and see if it hasn´t already been implemented
 

Ofaloaf

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The looking back is only a paranthese and there are a lot of discussion regarding the Rise Of Islam and Slavic Migration already.
Really? What pages are those discussions on? I confess, I only read back through about 10 pages before beginning to post; tearing through the reams of discussions is usually not the most productive use of time, as I've found while going through other 100+ page threads.

Hopefully Islam's rise is a big shock to the world and the treatment of the Prophet is tastefully done-- a big game-changing event two centuries into the game is a perfect fit (compare to the Mongol invasions) and depicting Mohammad respectfully is just a courteous thing to do. Heck, if need be, just mention Mohammad in the invasion-warning events (compare to the rumors of the Mongols events) and then present the rise of Islam as starting a little later with the Rashidun caliphs.

Likewise, I hope the Slavs appear and make a big splash more often than not. A mix of culture-conversion events and emerging states could be a good way of following their progress-- a massed tribal invasion under one or two titles wouldn't properly reflect all that, but those other mechanics would do a decentish job at it.
What I think think the focuse should be know is: , as stated before, the possibilty to have things that happened historically close to the start date being able to happen, while keeping it dynamic, model the trasition between feudalization and centralization and how cultures and melting pots will be handled. Personally I think that what happened with celts and christianity in Britain and the situation in France with the Franks and the schism and conversion of germanic pagans to christendom are also important events during this timeframe.
Watching the changes and displacement of (sub-)Roman peoples, such as the Gallo-Romans in Gaul and the transition in Britain from Romanized Celts to Britons (and then the Anglo-Saxons' subjugation of them) is highly appealing to be, and part of the reason why I'm so interested in this mod and the time period. It was an era of dramatic changes, migrations and upheaval-- judging from the discussions of events that I have read, it seems like the mod is endeavoring to do those changes justice.
 

loup99

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Look at the index in the OP, Islam is trying to be as dynamic and not hardcoded historical, quiet the opposite to the Mongols in my opinion. Rise of Islam is probably one of the most discussed stuff in this thread! I do also understand that you are not looking through 100+ pages before posting :happy: but there has been a lot of post on this thread that is good and Islam is richly discussed. The index sums it up (relatively) nicely.
 
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