When should I grant independence?

[grisamentum]

Grant Independence to baron + County Claim = free revocation. Especially useful because there is no way to fabricate a claim on a barony.

For example, you start as a count or duke with baron vassals but you're nowhere near demesne limit. You want to take those castles. Barcelona in 1066 is a good example.

 

[JonStryker]

How can I roleplay such an event?
I can only see such a scenario if the ruler is generous - but wouldn't it be too much to give away independence? I just give them gifts, at the top of my generous roleplay...
Perhaps if the ruler is insane too?

Generous?
The role of the liege is to protect his vassals from outside forces. The vassals have to pay hommage -> provide soldiers, maybe taxes. Granting counties independence so that they'd have to fend for themselves when a powerful enemy arises is the opposite of that. That's not generous. That's arbitrary.

 

[onodera]

Grant Independence to baron + County Claim = free revocation. Especially useful because there is no way to fabricate a claim on a barony.

For example, you start as a count or duke with baron vassals but you're nowhere near demesne limit. You want to take those castles. Barcelona in 1066 is a good example.

This. Especially when you're a republic and have no other way to revoke anything.

 

[Incomitatus]

No, the better solution is to become stronger that Georgia before your alliance runs out and try to fabricate a claim on the rest of Abkhazia before they attack you. Another, even better solution is to swear fealty to Cumania, get a normal marriage for your son with Anna Terteroba and then press Anna Terteroba's claim on Cumania after the Khan dies. After that, her heir will be your heir's heir and you'll become the Alan King of Cumania. Form Alania instantly, and make it your primary title.

Sadly, I play with Project Balance and SWMH, so there is no Cumania and it's impossible to get a marriage alliance with Sarkel (the dominant Kipchak polity of the lower steppe) for "Political Concerns". The Alliance with Georgia doesn't usually last more than a year or two, either, as both starting Kings are too old, and Georgia is stronger in PB+SWMH than in Vanilla. And then there was just bad luck in my current game, my heir had all sons and so did Georgia's heir, so no new marriage alliance was possible. All that said, I was prepared to contest Kasogs and had the money for sufficient mercenaries to dwarf the Georgian forces, but shortly after the war started Georgia entered an alliance with the ERE and called them in and that was that. One close battle which I nevertheless lost and I was forced to surrender with -267% war score: insta-surrender, no choice. Then Sarkel immediately declared a Raid and when all was said and done, I was still standing, but it took a decade to claw my way out of debt.

It was fun, but strictly speaking, I would have been better off abandoning Kasogs and focusing all those men and money toward the steppe and not losing them to Byzantine swords. Georgia didn't get to benefit from it, either, as inheritances have resulted in Abkhazia going to the Byzantines within one generation.

 

[ivicaeu3]

You can gamey pump up a good relationship: grant independence ,offer vassalization ,grant independence ,offer vassalization ...

 

[Ols]

Sadly, I play with Project Balance and SWMH, so there is no Cumania and it's impossible to get a marriage alliance with Sarkel (the dominant Kipchak polity of the lower steppe) for "Political Concerns". The Alliance with Georgia doesn't usually last more than a year or two, either, as both starting Kings are too old, and Georgia is stronger in PB+SWMH than in Vanilla. And then there was just bad luck in my current game, my heir had all sons and so did Georgia's heir, so no new marriage alliance was possible. All that said, I was prepared to contest Kasogs and had the money for sufficient mercenaries to dwarf the Georgian forces, but shortly after the war started Georgia entered an alliance with the ERE and called them in and that was that. One close battle which I nevertheless lost and I was forced to surrender with -267% war score: insta-surrender, no choice. Then Sarkel immediately declared a Raid and when all was said and done, I was still standing, but it took a decade to claw my way out of debt.

It was fun, but strictly speaking, I would have been better off abandoning Kasogs and focusing all those men and money toward the steppe and not losing them to Byzantine swords. Georgia didn't get to benefit from it, either, as inheritances have resulted in Abkhazia going to the Byzantines within one generation.

Try a vanilla Alania game sometime. Project Balance is fun, but I tend to get frustrated with the restriction myself. When Old Gods comes out, playing as Alania and fighting all the Turkic tribes will probably be exceptionally fun. Hopefully Alan will be moved to the Iranian culture group too, so you might be able to form the Persian Empire, or maybe Tartaria with an appropriate name.
I can see what you mean in that case though. Raid is a poorly written cb in most mods and I expect it'll be out the window in every mod out there when Old Gods adds sensible raiding. I don't really see why you'd be in debt when your land gets raided, surely your treasury would be emptied, and that'd be it.

 

[Incomitatus]

Try a vanilla Alania game sometime. Project Balance is fun, but I tend to get frustrated with the restriction myself. When Old Gods comes out, playing as Alania and fighting all the Turkic tribes will probably be exceptionally fun. Hopefully Alan will be moved to the Iranian culture group too, so you might be able to form the Persian Empire, or maybe Tartaria with an appropriate name.
I can see what you mean in that case though. Raid is a poorly written cb in most mods and I expect it'll be out the window in every mod out there when Old Gods adds sensible raiding. I don't really see why you'd be in debt when your land gets raided, surely your treasury would be emptied, and that'd be it.

PB allows you to take loans from the decision screen. I had taken 800 gold in loans at 10% annual interest, to pay for what I assumed would be a quick and easy war with Georgia (hiring three mercenary companies and keeping them raised). I then tried to fight the raid with my depleted forces, instead of just disbanding them and waiting it out. Lesson learned. I ended up with 0 gold, an 80 gold interest payment every year, and only about 100 annual income. I was only able to clear the debts in ten years due to some tithes, a couple wealthy courtier deaths, and a marriage. Not my most sensible moment of playing the game, but it was late at night and I'd been drinking whiskey. That's my excuse and I'm sticking to it.

I like PB, if for no other reason than reduced AI blobbing, especially of republics. I hear CK+ is good, too (who hasn't, on these forums, the shilling is constant), but I've been reluctant to try it since it'll be unsupported after Old Gods, and I don't want to get sucked into a mod that will be unplayable in a year.

 

[LordNeidhart]

Granting independence is also useful when you want to create buffer states between yourself and a future threat, or dismantle a powerful enemy. A player with holdings and plans mostly centered in, say, Scandinavia that manages to win a Crusade for Jerusalem might not want to deal with the inevitable Persian/Egyptian jihads later down the line, so it's not a bad strategy to strike first, taking places like Syria, filling it with people of your culture and religion, and releasing it as a friendly face on foreign lands.

 

[Oriflamme]

If you somehow acquire a problematic vassal on the other side of the map, for example. Can't tell you how many times I've been doing my own thing in Scandinavia only to end up with a barony in the Andes, whose levies are too far away for me to use, and whom I keep disbanding.

That's a good point. If you're not a world-conqueror like a lot of people here, that can be a good way of cleaning up your borders as well.

 

[NeverHelm]

Grant Independence to baron + County Claim = free revocation. Especially useful because there is no way to fabricate a claim on a barony.

For example, you start as a count or duke with baron vassals but you're nowhere near demesne limit. You want to take those castles. Barcelona in 1066 is a good example.

This is the only reason i use this feature. Call it gamey if you will but it gives you an easy way to get hold of one of you vassal baronies. Especially useful for Muslims in order to get a mosque.

 

[unmerged(196495)]

No, the better solution is to become stronger that Georgia before your alliance runs out and try to fabricate a claim on the rest of Abkhazia before they attack you. Another, even better solution is to swear fealty to Cumania, get a normal marriage for your son with Anna Terteroba and then press Anna Terteroba's claim on Cumania after the Khan dies. After that, her heir will be your heir's heir and you'll become the Alan King of Cumania. Form Alania instantly, and make it your primary title.

I grant independence to places I really can't defend, titles on the other side of the map and land which is so far flung or peripheral as to be useless. I generally don't care about Mali and Abysinnia and grant them independence if I gain them. I've also granted independence to large amounts of non de jure land as the Holy Roman Emperor when I gained the title accidentally, then lost the title and declared independence myself to try and make my own splinter kingdom with the culture and vassals I actually care about.

How do you prevent the Khan's fellow vassals of Azov and Itil gradually eating you up with conquest CB's if you vassalize to the Khan? If you are independent, and have strong nearby allies whom you've bribed into liking you alot, they can help out. I'm not sure they can do so if you are a vassal. Granted, Alania was like my second game and I probably understand war better now, but I had a really hard time of it.

 

[Mesina2]

For Role Playing purposes, I say.

 

[Ols]

How do you prevent the Khan's fellow vassals of Azov and Itil gradually eating you up with conquest CB's if you vassalize to the Khan? If you are independent, and have strong nearby allies whom you've bribed into liking you alot, they can help out. I'm not sure they can do so if you are a vassal. Granted, Alania was like my second game and I probably understand war better now, but I had a really hard time of it.

They can't use conquest on fellow vassals. They'll sit there hating you and you'll need to use your spymaster and chancellor to scheme and improve diplomatic relations to get them to join your plots. If you remain Orthodox and vote for increasingly high crown authority you can revoke all their High Chiefdoms upon taking the throne. If you go on a mad revoke spree, hold everything directly for a few weeks, and then from Alania and destroy Cumania you wont have any claimant wars to push your dynasty off the throne and you can then land loads of Alans and start de jure drifting Cumania, Crimea, Tyumen and Aqtobe into your Kingdom. If you're having difficulty keeping control still, I suggest you grant independence to Tyumen and Aqtobe, form Taurica and brutally put down every single rebellion. Try to keep Sarkel or Alania directly held because rebellions can be very extreme.

You don't need allies though. Just scheme to get Anna Terteroba on the throne, and then assasinate the other claimants to end the Terteroba family line with her.

Trust me on this, I've used this method twice and tried it with swearing fealty to the Byzantines (remaining Orthodox) and the Seljuks (converting to Islam). It's much easier to manipulate Tengri vassals and a Tengri liege. When Old Gods comes out you could convert to Tengri too, though I wouldn't as Orthodox, or preferably Nestorianism work very well for expansion and stability when you have a Patriarch of Alania to rule with an iron fist.

 

[gazurtoid]

You shouldn't grant independence ever.
For Duchy/County I'd say throw him to the Pope for Piety and Relations bonus.

What exactly does this mean? Are you referring to excommunication?

 

[ChildeR]

Lots of reasons.

The RP/subjective ones usually come down to you getting a vassal who you don't want to control. For example, if someone presses one of your vassals' claim to a distant kingdom that you don't want to manage, or you push an antipope's claim and want him to be independent.

Situations where it's actually beneficial to use the option (even in a powergaming sense) include problematic vassals, as others have said. There are also a few very gamey (IMO) tactics in addition to the county claim: if you get a faction ultimatum you can grant the leader independence to avoid the war; if you are losing an important war you can buy time by granting occupied vassals independence; sometimes you can even make a war invalid by granting independence to contested areas.

 

[Nimic]

If it's a Dejure vassal (and not a king) they should accept vassilization a day after you grant them independence. It's a nice +100 relations modifier as well.

That's so gamey that you might as well use the console to cheat at that point, though.

 

[Nintz]

Grant Independence to baron + County Claim = free revocation. Especially useful because there is no way to fabricate a claim on a barony.

For example, you start as a count or duke with baron vassals but you're nowhere near demesne limit. You want to take those castles. Barcelona in 1066 is a good example.

This is the only time I personally use Grant Independence, especially since I like to make republics everywhere, and making a different culture person head of a republic is asking for trouble.

 

[Theddude]

Only really for roleplaying or gamey abuse reasons.

My favorite recent use of it was as the Byzantine Empire I had all of the inevitable Abyssinian refugees from the Fatimid and Rassid conquest of the area. After I took over Egypt I launched several campaigns and drove the Muslims out of Abyssinia. I gave Axum back to the Solomonids and other provinces to the Daw and Azim families. Sadly, the Zagwes had run to Russia and died off so I couldn't preserve them, but then again they were the ones who lost the kingdom.

After I crafted Abyssinia to my liking, I created the King title and returned it to the Miaphysite Solomonids after hundreds of years off the throne. I decided to release them as soon as they "asked" for it by joining the independence faction. Once they did I let them go and Abyssinia is strong once again! I want mostly historical borders of Rome so keeping Abyssinia wasn't fitting into that, plus I wanted to see a powerful Solomonid Abyssinia with all of East Africa, it's pretty awesome.

 

[Ols]

I always convert people before I release them. I can't see my character handing land to heretics and infidels to be honest. I also released Abysinnia on several games, but I made them Shia in my Arabian Empire game and Orthodox on my Roman Empire one.

 

[Muskeato]

If I'm playing in an elective kingdom/empire, when I become sovereign I like to release all the 'fluff', for instance the HRE usually blobs into Africa which I always let go.

- I also like giving holy orders large chunks of land.