When is it worth claiming a throne?
- Thread starter Hashishin13
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No. I don't doubt that the AI claims throne. Nor do I doubt that when two nations claim throne, there's a succession war.
However, as I already stated, people get succession wars when they did not claim throne at all. If, in that scenario, the AI had claimed throne, then that AI nation would get the PU and the player, who had not claimed throne would get nothing.
Therefore this proves that you can get succession war without claiming throne.
I found the thread where it was discussed.
Funnily enough, one of the people reporting it (whom I've not quoted below), was Schmoe. So, rather amusing to see Beaga arguing with him about it
"the one who says it is impossible should not interrupt the one who is doing it."
Funnily enough, one of the people reporting it (whom I've not quoted below), was Schmoe. So, rather amusing to see Beaga arguing with him about it
"the one who says it is impossible should not interrupt the one who is doing it."
Your don't even need a RM?? That's really really dumb
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A succession war happened to me once without claiming throne either, but I think what happened is that I was the one with the most prestige and legitimacy so I inherited the PU, but the second in line (Austria, same dynasty too) did claim the throne and thus a succession war triggered. In that war Austria was considered the attacker, which seems logical. So if I'm right, only one country is required to claim the throne to trigger a succession war, as long as that country is not the first in line to get the PU.
But the country claiming throne should just get the PU, knocking off anyone who hasn't. Were you able to confirm they definitely claimed, eg through their relationship numbers? Do you still have any save from that time?
Unfortunately no, the only thing I'm sure of is that I didn't claim throne myself. When it happened I had a popup saying something like "the old king wishes you to rule over their country" and another popup saying "Austria considers itself to be the rightful ruler", everything on the same day. If Austria didn't claim the throne then I suppose it is possible we both had the same prestige/legitimacy, and in case of a draw a war is triggered ?
OK, I've tested and proved :
Succession wars can occur between two nations of the same Dynasty, even when neither of them have claimed throne, or even have a Royal Marriage.
But also, when a succession war is already due, Claim Throne does NOT remove the succession war! It just adds the Force PU CB so you can DOW them before their monarch dies, and force PU. But if the monarch dies without you using this CB, or probably also if he dies during the Force PU war, you still have to fight the succession war.
I used durvas' example to test it:
Succession wars can occur between two nations of the same Dynasty, even when neither of them have claimed throne, or even have a Royal Marriage.
But also, when a succession war is already due, Claim Throne does NOT remove the succession war! It just adds the Force PU CB so you can DOW them before their monarch dies, and force PU. But if the monarch dies without you using this CB, or probably also if he dies during the Force PU war, you still have to fight the succession war.
I used durvas' example to test it:
- I started a new game, 1444 bookmark, as Muskovy.
- I checked Tver's monarchy, and confirmed that - from game start - Muskovy and Ryazan will fight a succession war over Tver:
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- I then tag switched to Ryazan, to double check that they had not claimed throne, and did not have a Royal Marriage with Tver:
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- What's interesting is that this seems to be irrespective of both Prestige and Legitimacy
- Both Muskovy and Ryazan start with Prestige: 4 and Legitimacy: 100
- I then tried modifying these figures, giving Muskovy 5, 10, 20, 30, 40, 50, .. up to 100 Prestige
- And giving them lower Legitimacy, down to 0.
- But however I changed the figures, it was always ending in a succession war between the two nations.
- It's also not influenced by a RM - as Muskovy, I added a RM with Tver, but still there was succession war.
- But here's the strangest thing.. it's not influenced by Claim Throne, either!?
- As Muskovy I claimed the Tver throne.
- STILL there's a succession war.
- The difference is, now I have a CB to try and get the PU right now, without waiting to fight the war.
- This is new information.. in the case of a succession war, Claim Throne will not give you preference. But it will give you a CB to force the PU before the monarch dies, and thus avoid the succession war.
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Very interesting, thanks for testing. But what about peaceful PU when several countries have the same dynasty ? I don't think there is a succession war each time that happens, at least not in my experience.
Exactly, many times you get several with same dynasty, and yet one country is set to peacefully PU.
I don't know what the difference is, why this was always succession war when other cases are always peaceful PU.
This mechanic is so confusing
Just when we think we have got the measure of it, it throws up more unexplained cases.Also in this example Yaroslavl has the same dynasty as Tver and yet it is not part of the succession war, why ?
Looking at their ruler, he's also missing an heir, and yet the game says a noble will inherit, no succession war planned. I fail to see any consistency in this.
Looking at their ruler, he's also missing an heir, and yet the game says a noble will inherit, no succession war planned. I fail to see any consistency in this.
Usually a relationsdifference does a good job explaining this, but on the other hand I've also had succession wars with Aragon over Castile as Portugal when Aragon and Castile hated eachother, so it also isn't a perfect explanation. Perhaps Aragon claimed the throne then, I didn't check.
At least the relationsdifference did make Castile side with me in that case.
Hm so we might have a bug here.
And yet another reason for that lovely Dinasty DLC. Until things are transparent, we will see messes like this.
And yet another reason for that lovely Dinasty DLC. Until things are transparent, we will see messes like this.
This sounded plausible, but I just tested it and at least in the case of the Muskovy and Ryavan succession war over Tver, it made no difference:
- As Muskovy:
- I used the console to boost relations with Tver to +200
- I also allied with them.
- As Ryavan:
- I warned, insulted, rivalled and embargoed Tver, putting relations down to -65.
I am slightly concerned that maybe this particular succession war, which is there from game start, could be different to normal ones.
But I checked through the history files to see if there was anything "forcing" a succession war between these nations, and thus indicating that it doesn't follow normal rules. But there's nothing like that. It simply defines that Tver has a monarch but no heir, and that monarch is of the same dynasty as Muskovy and Ryavan.
So I have to assume that this is a completely normal same-dynasty situation, and what I've tested and demonstrated would happen in the same circumstances throughout the game.
So what causes us to get a peaceful PU opportunity when we share dynasty? I know for certain that it's not only when we are the only nation who has that dynasty.
In one of my games, I was England with House Lancaster. Later, both Portugal and Castile got House Lancaster as well. But it was only me, England, who was getting the peaceful PU with Castile.
Maybe, during the normal flow of the game, the game remembers who "originates" the dynasty? It knew that England has Lancaster first, before it then spread to Castile and Portugal. Therefore England is preferential and no succession war between Portugal and England?
Besides counting with a CB that will provide a PU with a 84% WS, I do not find any other reason. Nevertheles, I would not use them until 1700 just because you need to develop your dinasty, and in many ocassions you are not the best one to carry on this duty
I've ran a test in my prussian game.
France is big, with a PU with aragon and milan (weirdly enough, how come France get so many PU where I haven't got one in many hours of gameplay...).
France is "green" on the succession icon, I have a RM with them.
When the current french ruler dies, Jean de valois takes the throne. I understand I can claim the throne because their legitimacy must be pretty low.
So, I claim french throne, fire up the console and kill french ruler.
As expected, Jean takes the throne, turns out french legitimacy is 30ish. There is no legal heir.
Now, it says if Jean dies, a noble from house hoenzollern takes the throne. All right, my dynasty is on the line.
Claim throne again, fire up the console and kill Jean.
louis von hoenzollern is now the french king.
Louis has no legal heir, yet if I claim throne again and kill louis, still no PU (though, I have the claim throne CB now since we are the same dynasty) : Another noble from house hoenzollern takes the french throne.
As I understand the mechanic, this third attempt should give me a PU?
France is big, with a PU with aragon and milan (weirdly enough, how come France get so many PU where I haven't got one in many hours of gameplay...).
France is "green" on the succession icon, I have a RM with them.
When the current french ruler dies, Jean de valois takes the throne. I understand I can claim the throne because their legitimacy must be pretty low.
So, I claim french throne, fire up the console and kill french ruler.
As expected, Jean takes the throne, turns out french legitimacy is 30ish. There is no legal heir.
Now, it says if Jean dies, a noble from house hoenzollern takes the throne. All right, my dynasty is on the line.
Claim throne again, fire up the console and kill Jean.
louis von hoenzollern is now the french king.
Louis has no legal heir, yet if I claim throne again and kill louis, still no PU (though, I have the claim throne CB now since we are the same dynasty) : Another noble from house hoenzollern takes the french throne.
As I understand the mechanic, this third attempt should give me a PU?
I don't know if this helps,
Yesterday I tried with a Byzantium game 1444, where I rushed to Royal marriage with Poland during their (Interregrum or however its called), then claimed throne. In December 1447 I got a pop up where my claim throne was no longer valid, but their ruler is now of my dynasty.
I tried this 3 times, twice it worked, and once it failed, probably because I had negative prestige.
On the second success, Lithuania later had a weak heir, I wonder if I did the same, the result would be the same?
Summary: If you are fast enough with high enough prestige you can be pretty sure to get Poland. Note however that their PU with Lithuania can no longer work.
Yesterday I tried with a Byzantium game 1444, where I rushed to Royal marriage with Poland during their (Interregrum or however its called), then claimed throne. In December 1447 I got a pop up where my claim throne was no longer valid, but their ruler is now of my dynasty.
I tried this 3 times, twice it worked, and once it failed, probably because I had negative prestige.
On the second success, Lithuania later had a weak heir, I wonder if I did the same, the result would be the same?
Summary: If you are fast enough with high enough prestige you can be pretty sure to get Poland. Note however that their PU with Lithuania can no longer work.
Claiming thrones and succession wars are plainly broken on this version. On my latest France game i had to fight a war for Provence's succession against Austria without ever so much as looking at Provence's diplomacy page. Lucky me, though, as I wrecked Austria and forced them to release Styria, permanently defanging one of my greatest rivals. And I got Provence under a PU with me. I know the ruler of Provence was a de Valois, but i'm positive i've never RM'ed them. Latter on I thought I could get the throne of Denmark because it said "a noble from house de Valois succeeds the throne". I clicked the button and it changed to "Personal Union with France". I could almost TASTE my new blob. But then it changed to "Sucession war with Bohemia". I though "ok, nothing good ever comes with no effort". But then, Denmark's 63 y/o Queen produced a new Heir god-only-knows-how and I lost my claim. So the Claim Throne button is currently simply a "click here to lose prestige and annoy people for no gain" button.
Can we all agree that RM, PU and Succession wars are poorly documented, buggy (http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum...n-mechanics-ruined-my-Ironman-Game&highlight=), not very logical and needs to be fixed?