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oblio-

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Just saying, I have played maybe 20 hours total since 1.2 came out (and 400 hours before that); just enough in each patch to see that I don't want to keep on playing. I don't really think what the comic says is the case for most people here. I would be crazy if I played a game I don't like, and I'm not, so I don't.
Well, I noticed very polarized opinions for the new versions.
A lot of people love them, a lot of people hate them (on the forum). Of course, never the same people for each new version.
The silent majority (lurkers, people not on the forums) probably keep chugging along.

One thing I noticed from various games (and other activities): if you're posting about it in a online forum, you're probably a minority. Paradox probably has player stats including DLC sales. I'd think that they've figured out what players want most by now. The hard part is fitting this into their game design and the time allotted for development.
 

TheMeInTeam

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Haha the Icefrog comic is always amusing. Keep in mind, however, that even *those* patches aren't nearly at this level of response ;). It's not fair though; DOTA has been stable from a pure design standpoint for a long time...I would argue to its detriment due to the sheer difference in impact the various roles have on the outcome...but that's for another forum entirely (or at least off topic here :)). However, from a patch reception standpoint, the only patch that got the kind of negative reception that we're seeing in 1.5 was the April fool's one many years back which temporarily, intentionally and overtly shattered any semblance of balance in the game and altered the hero names to parody it. The players from countries that are not familiar with April fools rituals, or just didn't realize what was going on, raised quite the **** storm :D.
 

CyaN

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Well, I noticed very polarized opinions for the new versions.
A lot of people love them, a lot of people hate them (on the forum). Of course, never the same people for each new version.
The silent majority (lurkers, people not on the forums) probably keep chugging along.

One thing I noticed from various games (and other activities): if you're posting about it in a online forum, you're probably a minority. Paradox probably has player stats including DLC sales. I'd think that they've figured out what players want most by now. The hard part is fitting this into their game design and the time allotted for development.

Yes, they have stats. As far as I know they're very happy with them.

The problem is, numbers don't talk. They're just numbers, and you can interpret them, if you want, however you want. I mean, studios looking at numbers, doing what "the numbers" say they should do and crashing is something that happens all the time. Forum users are not the majority of players and you can't design a game specifically for them, but they are more than willing to say what they think and their views are not only their own, but also shared by many of the players who don't say anything. If you completely disregard whatever "the whiners" are "babbling about" in the forum, and stick to your precious numbers, numbers will start failing eventually and you won't know why that's happening or what can you do to stop it. It's the rise and fall of game studios, a tale as old as videogames themselves, and PDS until now had been very good at avoiding that fate.
 

Novacat

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Playing Venice and had zero rebellions from Tuscany, Naxos etc.

Only trouble I had was in the beta when Sweden was supported by Lithuania to ask Independence and it made a lot of sense, even if hair pulling annoying.

What kind of vassal trouble you had and when.

http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum...s-4-Empire&p=16901238&viewfull=1#post16901238

After 1700 or so Muscovy would rebel on a regular basis. Byzantium would occasionally go disloyal, with Persia supporting their bid for independance, but they never actually declared independance and would eventually revert back to vassal attitude. Ming and Nepal remained loyal.
 

RobRoy3

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Yes, they have stats. As far as I know they're very happy with them.

The problem is, numbers don't talk. They're just numbers, and you can interpret them, if you want, however you want. I mean, studios looking at numbers, doing what "the numbers" say they should do and crashing is something that happens all the time. Forum users are not the majority of players, but they are more willing to say what they think and their views are not only their own, but also shared by many of the players who don't say anything. If you completely disregard whatever "the whiners" are "babbling about" in the forum, and stick to your precious numbers, numbers will start failing eventually and you won't know why that's happening or what can you do to stop it. It's the rise and fall of game studios, and PDS until now had been very good at avoiding that fate.
It's weird. Sometimes, they appear to completely ignore perfectly valid complaints. Sometimes they seem overly eager to implement some poorly thought out forum idea that doesn't fit well with the game.

I would hope both of those perceptions are wrong. But, to the extent there is a problem with the releases, it's partly (even mostly?) a consistency problem. I still cannot articulate what their design intent is toward expansion, five months after release. It actually would help if we could. Then people could decide whether to wait/hope for "improvement" in a future patch or get to modding the game, so that it's "right". And, if they're going to force modding to be the answer (a perfectly acceptable answer in my mind), they really need to allow mods to work with ironman and achievements, since so many people like those features. But they won't even allow random luckies on ironman, so I'm not holding my breath, there.

But the forum reactions don't seem unusually vitriolic to me, based on Paradox history. Can't speak for all games, but Civ forum reactions generally struck me as vitriolic (and even more impolite than even the crassest newbie here). Maybe the patch reactions are worse than CK2, but they seem far more subdued than they have been for most Paradox titles. I mean, c'mon, EU3, HOI3, Rome, Vicky, CK1? They all had extended periods where they most people would describe them as broken and unplayable. Even 1.4 (which I thought was a fail) was eminently playable, if slightly borked for some nations.
 

Novacat

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It's weird. Sometimes, they appear to completely ignore perfectly valid complaints. Sometimes they seem overly eager to implement some poorly thought out forum idea that doesn't fit well with the game.

This is the most perfect description of EUIV's development that can be put into the english language.
 

CyaN

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It's weird. Sometimes, they appear to completely ignore perfectly valid complaints. Sometimes they seem overly eager to implement some poorly thought out forum idea that doesn't fit well with the game.

I would hope both of those perceptions are wrong. But, to the extent there is a problem with the releases, it's partly (even mostly?) a consistency problem. I still cannot articulate what their design intent is toward expansion, five months after release. It actually would help if we could. Then people could decide whether to wait/hope for "improvement" in a future patch or get to modding the game, so that it's "right". And, if they're going to force modding to be the answer (a perfectly acceptable answer in my mind), they really need to allow mods to work with ironman and achievements, since so many people like those features. But they won't even allow random luckies on ironman, so I'm not holding my breath, there.

But the forum reactions don't seem unusually vitriolic to me, based on Paradox history. Can't speak for all games, but Civ forum reactions generally struck me as vitriolic (and even more impolite than even the crassest newbie here). Maybe the patch reactions are worse than CK2, but they seem far more subdued than they have been for most Paradox titles. I mean, c'mon, EU3, HOI3, Rome, Vicky, CK1? They all had extended periods where they most people would describe them as broken and unplayable. Even 1.4 (which I thought was a fail) was eminently playable, if slightly borked for some nations.

Yes, I certainly agree with your post (and probably that's a first! :p). I mean, I don't like how AE works... but the worse part of that is that it was radically different in release EUIV, and also in the last patch (and we still don't know if the AE changes in 1.4 were partly a feature, or a full bug, or a failed feature, or whatever). If AE had worked the same way or at least within the same design philosophy since release, I would have adapted to it, or I would use mods, or whatever; but the uncertainty makes me think that maybe, after all, Paradox shares my view of the game, but they just don't know how to implement it; just maybe. Or maybe the game is supposed to be so different to my view of it that not even mods could make me like it. Or maybe... I just don't know what to think anymore.

I mean, back in 1.1 Johan said that vassal feeding was WAD. Literal words: "Is vassal feeding WAD?", and Johan answers: "it's WAD". I remember it because I created that thread. And every patch since then has added a huge restriction to vassal feeding, once at a time.
 

Novacat

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I mean, back in 1.1 Johan said that vassal feeding was WAD. Literal words: "Is vassal feeding WAD?", and Johan says: "it's WAD". I remember it because I created that thread. And every patch since then has added a huge restriction to vassal feeding, once at a time.

I remember this too, it makes me wonder if even Johan is sure what exactly he wants to do with EUIV, as it seems to change on a regular basis with no notification that it changed at all.
 

Solo4114

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Just now reading Brendan Simms new book, "Europe: The Struggle for Supremacy, 1453 to the Present". If anything, that book paints a picture of how whenever a country would get the upper hand in Europe, competing countries would form a coalition to pull it back down.

Sure, one can argue that this is not "fun". But it is quite historical. I think expansion should be even slower and met with higher resistance.

Well, this gets at what, in my opinion, is THE fundamental problem in the game, but I'll get to that in a second.

Honestly, every EUIV patch I remember has been like this. With 1.2 I thought the zealous rejection or zealous adoration (choose 1 and fight to death for it, while insulting the opposite camp) of the changes was a one-time issue and PDS would solve it soon, but by now I am forced to admit that something's seriously wrong with the way this game is progressing. The only answer from PDS has been "everything's WAD"; then they change it, and inmediately say "it's WAD" again. Apparently "it's WAD" means "it's in the game and doesn't make your computer explode".

It's weird. Sometimes, they appear to completely ignore perfectly valid complaints. Sometimes they seem overly eager to implement some poorly thought out forum idea that doesn't fit well with the game.

I would hope both of those perceptions are wrong. But, to the extent there is a problem with the releases, it's partly (even mostly?) a consistency problem. I still cannot articulate what their design intent is toward expansion, five months after release. It actually would help if we could. Then people could decide whether to wait/hope for "improvement" in a future patch or get to modding the game, so that it's "right". And, if they're going to force modding to be the answer (a perfectly acceptable answer in my mind), they really need to allow mods to work with ironman and achievements, since so many people like those features. But they won't even allow random luckies on ironman, so I'm not holding my breath, there.

Here's the thing. I think they've actually told us everything we need to know about their design philosophy for this game. The philosophy seems to be this:

In very, very simple terms, the goal of the game is to expand, and the game is designed to limit expansion.

That's it. That's the point. That's the philosophy.


In very broad strokes, this makes sense, and is truly "WAD." I mean, take any game and figure that the point of the game is to succeed/win, and the game is designed to prevent you from doing so, thus creating a challenge for you.

The problem with THIS game is in HOW expansion is done, and HOW expansion is limited.


At the moment, expansion seems basically to be done primarily through conquest, but also to some degree through colonization. Trade helps make you money to run your empire, but it's really a sub-game. The game is basically about warfare and expansion, and that's what you "do" in the game. Everything revolves around it, and that includes the mechanisms designed to frustrate expansion.

It makes sense, generally speaking, for the game to have mechanisms that frustrate expansion. After all, if the point is expansion, where's the fun if you don't create a challenge that makes expansion more difficult? Players need to overcome limitations to feel like they've accomplished something, so, of course, there will be mechanisms that frustrate expansion.



What I see as the fundamental problem with this game is that there is hardly any modeling of internal governance, which apparently is also by design, since the point of the game is outward expansion rather than inward management. The impact of this, however, is that the only active things the player does is engage in warfare. Everything else in the game is very hands-off and highly abstracted, including the mechanisms that frustrate expansion (AE/OE). This has resulted in a game that fundamentally operates as follows:

Expand (usually by warfare), then watch the clock.

Instead of being constantly active, the player is only really active during expansion periods. This, apparently, is also by design, and it is this last piece that I think causes the most frustration and confusion because it isn't fun and Paradox doesn't seem to realize or care. Instead, they keep messing with the limiting mechanisms in the game, trying to strike a balance relating to speed, when what they need to be doing is focusing on activity.


Think about it. All of the limitations on expansion are about curtailing the speed at which you expand. But when you aren't expanding, there's nothing much else to do.


I would think that, at this point, as each consecutive patch is received with at-best-mixed reviews by the players, Paradox would realize that they can tinker with the speed of expansion forever and still will never find the right balance because that's not the problem. You'll never strike an effective balance because what's fine for one person in terms of expansion speed will be boring for another person. What this game needs is more to actively do as a player that ISN'T related to expansion, and that means hands-on internal management.


But apparently, this notion is anathema to Paradox because NOT having it is "WAD." And it was when I figured this out, shortly before the release of 1.4, that I decided it probably wasn't worth playing the game any more through all the various patches that would simply try to ignore this issue, and instead focus on tinkering with how fast you can expand. I still check the forums once in a while to see if anything's changing, but it doesn't look like it is.

Maybe that'll change in the future, but I'm guessing I'll just have to figure that this period in history is something Paradox just doesn't know how to implement in a game, and focus on other eras.
 

TheMeInTeam

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I remember this too, it makes me wonder if even Johan is sure what exactly he wants to do with EUIV, as it seems to change on a regular basis with no notification that it changed at all.

I think to Johan, WAD means "does this do what I programmed it to do" rather than "from a design perspective, is this functioning how we believe it should" :D. That's the only way his answer history makes sense.
 

CyaN

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I think to Johan, WAD means "does this do what I programmed it to do" rather than "from a design perspective, is this functioning how we believe it should" :D.

So, everything's WAD unless there's a typo in the code?

Well, that's a... comfortable definition of the term :p
 

CyaN

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I'm not saying that that's the correct way to define "WAD", just that it's the way it's apparently being used ;).

Yep, that's what I meant ;)

The Ryuku WC AAR probably changed his mind a bit on a few now-exploits. :)

That's like McDonalds switching every menu item in all their restaurants to full-vegan (tofu burgers, etc) because Paris Hilton just said she likes it better that way. Doesn't seem like the wisest business decision.
 

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I do not understand why anyone would ask when 1.6 is coming out when they haven't even played 1.5 yet because people on a forum complained about it.

If you haven't played 1.5, just try it out! I'm not promising you will like it, but what is the point of refusing to try something because strangers on the internet complained about it?

I'll admit, I was a little dubious going into playing 1.5 last night after reading the issues brought up on these forums, but my opinion was that there is no point passing judgement on something I haven't personally tried, so I tried it out.

Yes, it is harder to expand consistently than it was before. However, it was not nearly as bad as the posts made me expect. I paced myself and took 5-10 years between wars and have managed to avoid scary coalitions so far. If you want to be constantly at war, then yeah, you'll get large coalitions, but as long as you're pacing your wars, you can avoid them. Whether or not this is something you're OK with is your opinion, but please at least try the patch before passing judgement on it (it will take what, maybe 2-4 hours out of your life to do so?). Don't let other people's opinions scare you out of trying something, it's not a fun way to go through life.
 
Last edited:

TolHydra

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What happens whenever a new patch comes out:

1. People start a new game.
2. Realize they can't do WC in their first attempt.
3. Go to forums and complain that game is broken.

For me it's more like

Buy the game, play a bit (100 hours), have a long hypothetical list of annoyances
Go to forums, read, ALOT.
Get ever so slightly annoyed by people complaining, about people complaining.
Wait until everything settles down and game gets ck2 level of polish and consistency.
Eventually everything will settle down
 
Last edited:

Grell74

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...And it was when I figured this out, shortly before the release of 1.4, that I decided it probably wasn't worth playing the game any more through all the various patches that would simply try to ignore this issue, and instead focus on tinkering with how fast you can expand. I still check the forums once in a while to see if anything's changing, but it doesn't look like it is.

I have exactly the same relationship with EU4 atm. Soon I wont even bother checking the forum to see if anything has improved because PI have already stated they wont overhaul (or add in) the non-warfare mechanics, only keep over/under altering the expansion speeds.
 

Grell74

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Wait until everything settles down and game gets ck2 level of polish and consistency.
Eventually everything will settle down

The DLC content and design path CK2 has taken dont necessarily give hope that some fundamental EU4 design mechanics and issues people have raised with EU4 will ever be addressed. CK2 has primarily seen more and more content packed on at the edges.