When Did CK2 Become Benny Hill?

[justin6477]

The battle captives mod would go a long way to solving OP's issues. If you smash an army, you're very likely to grab a few of their commanders and prisoners of war can have a significant warscore cost. Naturally, this goes the other way as well.

It's a particularly fun mod for Greeks, for obvious reasons, but it's always enjoyable to start a war with a rival state (even if you don't want their land) if only to execute their ruler or mangle them in some way. Strategic trimming of dynasties can throw any number of nations into disarray.

 

[Aardvark Bellay]

What is the shattered retreat now then? I mean, how is it supposed to work...

When I played yesterday (with latest patch), I attacked my neighbouring tribe, best them in their most northerly province and then they proceeded to wander around Northern East-Europe with that white flag - instead of moving one (or two) provinces South (both unsieged).

Hmm....i will look more specifically at it.
I don't recall anyone official saying they should only run one or two provinces.

What i see is them running around four provinces (haven't studied it exactly ) with a white flag.
Not as it was in 2.5 release, like running across half a continent sometimes.

Though what i see then is that armies like to proceed running away, without the flag, in a wrong
(away from the enemy) direction leading to these huge circle runs i described earlier..

 

[StarSword]

Hmm....i will look more specifically at it.
I don't recall anyone official saying they should only run one or two provinces.

What i see is them running around four provinces (haven't studied it exactly ) with a white flag.
Not as it was in 2.5 release, like running across half a continent sometimes.

Though what i see then is that armies like to proceed running away, without the flag, in a wrong
(away from the enemy) direction leading to these huge circle runs i described earlier..

What I typically see is they run towards the nearest non-hostile territory, usually for around dozen counties (which can mean months of running out in Persia or Tartaria).

 

[mjohnson85]

Hmm....i will look more specifically at it.
I don't recall anyone official saying they should only run one or two provinces.

What i see is them running around four provinces (haven't studied it exactly ) with a white flag.
Not as it was in 2.5 release, like running across half a continent sometimes.

Though what i see then is that armies like to proceed running away, without the flag, in a wrong
(away from the enemy) direction leading to these huge circle runs i described earlier..

What I typically see is they run towards the nearest non-hostile territory, usually for around dozen counties (which can mean months of running out in Persia or Tartaria).

You both are right.

SHATTERED_RETREAT_PREFERRED_PROVINCES = 4,                -- Units will try to move at least this many provinces away in shattered retreat
    SHATTERED_RETREAT_MAX_PROVINCES = 10,                    -- Units can not move longer than this many provinces during a shattered retreat

 

[RX2000]

I'm not a big fan of shattered retreat. It doesnt make much sense historically or from a gameplay perspective. I'm not sure why they brought it over from EU4 to CK2.

 

[StarSword]

You both are right.

SHATTERED_RETREAT_PREFERRED_PROVINCES = 4,                -- Units will try to move at least this many provinces away in shattered retreat
    SHATTERED_RETREAT_MAX_PROVINCES = 10,                    -- Units can not move longer than this many provinces during a shattered retreat

Yeah, see, I think it should be calculated based on travel time (there's already a distance variable they can use), not province count. For a real life example of shattered retreat, albeit in EU4 time period, the so-called Castlebar Races when French troops and Irish rebels got the redcoats to break and run in 1798. They ran from Castlebar in County Mayo (CK2's c_connacht) to Tuam in the same county. I have never ever heard of an army fleeing from Aquitaine all the way to Normandy like I've seen in CK2.

 

[Aardvark Bellay]

You both are right.

SHATTERED_RETREAT_PREFERRED_PROVINCES = 4,                -- Units will try to move at least this many provinces away in shattered retreat
    SHATTERED_RETREAT_MAX_PROVINCES = 10,                    -- Units can not move longer than this many provinces during a shattered retreat

THANKS

 

[Dudas Drakaan]

Instead of full-on shattered retreats, I would like the following:
1. Armies can shatter one province away if A) There is a province unoccupied by enemies and B) That unoccupied province has at least partial ownership of a non-hostile faction.
2. If none of these are true, then the army breaks, most of the manpower is returned back to the provinces from which they came - but is done so over time (similar to how manpower trickles back from field hospitals in HOI IV). However, some of the manpower is lost due to "desertion" (something that was a big deal in medieval armies but which is basically untouched in CK2 right now). The percentage of troops that make it back and the percentage of troops who desert could be affected by a great number of things, such as tech, the commander's diplomacy, the lord's diplomacy, etc.

Making an enemy army break but giving a trickle-back on the manpower would allow the loser of a big battle to eventually make a comeback, but would allow the victor a window to take advantage of that victory - and maybe siege or assault a couple of provinces. I think that would help both sides of the argument and would make the whole thing feel more authentic and medieval.

I mean, organized armies making a retreat was more of a thing when armies were actually organized, and outside of Byzantium, a professional organized army was not a thing in the medieval era. I suppose the Teutonic Order would have been an exception, but it's hard to find professional armies in the medieval world that wouldn't just break and its men run to the four winds when a battle was lost.

 

[Dudas Drakaan]

To all people who shared their views about some battles being decisive or not: ok, I may agree, but you're all (or almost) missing the OP's point which is that the new SR mechanic pushes the already known "ping-pong" effect way too far.

That is what the OP was arguing about ultimately.

Thank you.

 

[Dudas Drakaan]

I think sieges could be integrated into the diplomatic system....

I love that idea. You could even have it in tandem with the whole CK RP system. For instance, as the siege leader you might want private concessions with the defenders for gold or something or maybe you could agree not to sack the castle.

It could make for some pretty fun and hilarious encounters. For instance, I once read Edward I "Longshanks" (before he was King) refused surrender while sieging a town during the crusades simply because he really wanted to try out his newly purchased trebuchets.

 

[Thrake]

If you are ping-pong so much, it means you must have an army that is really poor in pursue phase. I pointed it to people using a pikemen retinue, but I don't expect you beat kings with a count retinue. You can probably find poor pursue phase merc bands so I gess that's your problem here. You want some light infantry/cavalry in decent numbers in your army for more decisive battle. You can also use agressive leaders (trait).

 

[Dudas Drakaan]

If you are ping-pong so much, it means you must have an army that is really poor in pursue phase. I pointed it to people using a pikemen retinue, but I don't expect you beat kings with a count retinue. You can probably find poor pursue phase merc bands so I gess that's your problem here. You want some light infantry/cavalry in decent numbers in your army for more decisive battle. You can also use agressive leaders (trait).

In my Byzantine game my army was mostly light infantry, so yes, I guess some cav would have helped. But I immediately afterward quit and played a game as Kazan where a great deal of my army was light cav and horse archers, and the situation was actually worse. When I routed Georgia, they retreated all the way from southern Ukraine to northern Turkey while managing to outrun my army of cav, despite the Georgians being almost entirely heavy infantry... So having a better pursue phase really doesn't help - I guess because every medieval man is also a well trained marathon runner in CK2.

 

[DàbiànLājīdàrén]

I wish pdx would just remove combat from CK2 altogether or at least CK3. It's by far the least well though out and implemented feature in the game.

 

[Tapio]

Ironically, from all the responses on this post, it seems most of you actually agree with me despite the marks on my original post. CK2 was at one point my favorite game of all time. I come back and find it irreversibly changed and I cannot change it back. The fact that it was changed post release (not during early access) represents a serious problem to me. The game that exists now is not the game that I loved 1 year ago - and I will never be able to play that game again as, it seems from my discussion with a few modders, the changes are hard-coded (vassal limits being another thing I would rather not exist).

You can play all the old versions of the game. Just opt in to the beta patches and pick the game you like.

 

[Fishman786]

I wish pdx would just remove combat from CK2 altogether or at least CK3. It's by far the least well though out and implemented feature in the game.

How would you conquer things without combat though? Some sort of incredibly frustrating and over-complicated event chain?

 

[DàbiànLājīdàrén]

How would you conquer things without combat though? Some sort of incredibly frustrating and over-complicated event chain?

rock paper scissors

battles should just be auto resolved immediately with less factors

they should just erase the entire military system and base it around three unit types and be easily understandable

they should just copy the eu4 system it makes way more sense

 

[RhoDaZZ]

It'd be less tedious if there was a tooltip saying where armies shatter to, but it's still not a fun exercise to have to do.

What I'd really like to see though is something that isn't shattered retreats or stackwipes. One way of doing it could be to have armies that are resoundingly defeated down to no morale be broken up, but not completely lost - you'd get a lesser portion of it back in levies, instantly or preferably over a few months. Of course that'd require both the players and the AI to be more aware of when it is opportune to retreat early, which might be somewhat difficult. It could also be done through post-retreat attrition and more logical pathing through fewer good supply provinces. The possibilities are almost endless.

 

[DàbiànLājīdàrén]

I'd still suggest simplifying if not completely doing away with the CK combat system. The combat is really not the focus of the game anymore and is more of a hassle to figure out and manage than it's worth. I'd opt for a more hands off EU4 or Victoria 3 style combat where there are only 3 unit types and doesn't require some archaic army composition to become overpowered and there aren't 50 different tactics, 90% of which are useless. Really the only thing I think the player should decide is what commanders are in charge. Everything else should be taken care of automatically so the player can get back to the intrigue and politicking that is the core of the game.

 

[Dudas Drakaan]

You can play all the old versions of the game. Just opt in to the beta patches and pick the game you like.

Older and buggier version, you mean. I'm like someone who has gone to a shop and complained about my transmission and your suggestion is that I should drive another, older car. I don't see how this really helps me.

Thanks to Paradox, however, they will be adding the ability to change options like Shattered Retreat without affecting Ironman Achievements or breaking multiplayer. So clearly I'm not alone in my complaints if they have already gone out of their way to address the issue.

I wish pdx would just remove combat from CK2 altogether or at least CK3. It's by far the least well though out and implemented feature in the game.

No thanks, I don't want this either. If anything, I wish the combat system were more complex and the player had more agency. Then again, I'm a HOI kind of guy anyway.

 

[TheDungen]

Well...

Hastings, Manzikert, Bannockburn, The Horns of Hattin... there were quite a few, I'd say (and those are not all, of course).

Manzikert wasn't won at the battle it was won because the byzantine empires numerous turkish mercenaries turned coat after the byzantine loss in the battle. They then turned most of anatolia over to the invaders. But castles were sieged down, just from inside.