What's your favorite moment from this game?

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MJF

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Thinking here other than the final victory -- unless it was extraordinary in how fast, or with what country you did it.

As Germany, this below is always high on my list:

My_Fav.png


Normal/Normal, & constant UK Navy attacks to deal with.
 
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Commander666

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Probably sinking a large USN fleet using U-boats.
 

MJF

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Probably sinking a large USN fleet using U-boats.
Ah -- good one. I'm happy to sink a large US fleet with anything, but with your massive SS 4's, that w/b something!
 
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stevep

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Well I haven't played for a couple of years and can't see myself getting back in the near future as another game has me hooked at the moment but my last one, refreshing as the Soviets as I hadn't played for a while. Fairly historical build up other than rejecting the purge and building ~140 divs of 41 Inf/40Art [with some 40 AT and Eng] along with some motorised divs IIRC. Held against the Germany storm with only one point of my defensive line lost and bled them heavily. Normally wait until Win 42 before I counter attack seriously but decided to get back that lost province - as it meant they couldn't attack another province with a 3 angle bonus. Started the ball rolling and I started realising how heavily I'd bled the Germans. Ended up, thanks to the AS moving the single unit defending it out to Potsdam, with the Red Army presenting Stalin with a Christmas present on 25-12-41 by occupying Berlin. :D
 

MJF

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Well I haven't played for a couple of years and can't see myself getting back in the near future as another game has me hooked at the moment but my last one, refreshing as the Soviets as I hadn't played for a while. Fairly historical build up other than rejecting the purge and building ~140 divs of 41 Inf/40Art [with some 40 AT and Eng] along with some motorised divs IIRC. Held against the Germany storm with only one point of my defensive line lost and bled them heavily. Normally wait until Win 42 before I counter attack seriously but decided to get back that lost province - as it meant they couldn't attack another province with a 3 angle bonus. Started the ball rolling and I started realising how heavily I'd bled the Germans. Ended up, thanks to the AS moving the single unit defending it out to Potsdam, with the Red Army presenting Stalin with a Christmas present on 25-12-41 by occupying Berlin. :D
That's pretty impressive. I have a game (dormant for the moment), my 2nd as USSR, where I built level 10 forts behind the Dom, and up to just before Moscow & Leningrad. They discouraged many attacks (except that flat area just SW of Moscow), and I launched counter attacks in '44.My first attempt I tried to hold at the Dnieper & got crushed.
 

stevep

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That's pretty impressive. I have a game (dormant for the moment), my 2nd as USSR, where I built level 10 forts behind the Dom, and up to just before Moscow & Leningrad. They discouraged many attacks (except that flat area just SW of Moscow), and I launched counter attacks in '44.My first attempt I tried to hold at the Dnieper & got crushed.

Well virtually all my games have been as the Soviets - one brief go at Germany 3-4 years back. Basically started with them as the easiest great power to play - no threat until ~June 41 in a single player game, only one front and no great naval needs. Being a bit of a micro-manager and having other commitments at times it generally means that by the time I get to about 43/44 and I'm somewhere on the Rhine there's a new mod of the game out and I have to think things through again. Plus initially I was blundering around, finding out assorted things. [For instance in my 1st game I assumed that having signed the pact with Germany, to occupy eastern Poland I actually invaded as historically and found myself at war with the western allies. Took a bit of time/digging to find out that you just get them automatically when Germany has conquered Poland.!] Had a family commitment for the past couple of years so have rather dropped out and now have another very addictive game keeping me busy.

Probably my best game had me conquering pretty much all the continent, including Iberia as when I attacked Vichy France Spain and Portugal joined the Axis - which at that point consisted of the Italian footholds in Africa and Corsica/Sardinia and the newly joined Vichy. Even got Gibraltar as a bonus as this meant Franco was also at war with the western allies and I presume Britain had left it ungarrisoned. This was an earlier version where Germany almost always conquered Britain and Italy overran much of Africa, fortunately that doesn't seem to happen as much now. Was going to try a longer game with a liberation of China and as much as I could of the rest of the Japanese empire then possibly see how I rated against the western powers but shortly after the liberation of Gibraltar the game just kept crashing!!

In my early games I used forts a lot but found them too easy as unless you strip the garrison to just about nothing even the AI gives up attacking and also it does tie up a fair bit of resources that are literally immobile. Hence don't use them at all nowadays.

My standard approach goes for roughly an historical game other than rejecting the purge, Hell of an effort burning off the resulting dissent but gives more military and also a couple of useful tech teams and most of all markedly higher organisation and morale. I do go for the conquest of Finland, which with the 1.10 version basically means holding the front line while having two amphibious assaults, one seizing Turku and then attacking Helskini from the west and the other going for Vaasa, while making sure not to occupy any other provinces.

Tend to occupy Latvia and Estonia in autumn 39, partly because it gives more time to use their production and partly because the diplomacy system is very limited for the Soviets so never had much confidence in it. [One early game I tried everything to keep Romania at least neutral, getting relations up to +200, rejecting the option of seizing Bessarabia, guaranteeing their borders and they still immediately joined the Axis when the Germans attacked], Hence I normally take Bessarabia as well as the hills of Chisinev and Beltsy generally form the southern anchor of my line. In the past I left Lithuania independent as the Germans never seem to attack or ally with it so it shortens the defensive line. However in that last game I did take it as well. My basic defensive front line was Chisinev, Beltsy, Stanislawow, Tarnopol, Rowne, Pinsk, Slonim, Grodno, Alytus, Siauliau and Jelegava IIRC which is slighly more forward of my normal line but gives only 11 provinces to defend, makes decent use of terrain and can only be attacked from two other provinces in most cases so preventing any multiple axis attack bonus. [I thought there wasn't any but notice that both Pinsk and Beltsy can be attacked from three provinces so could be remembering wrongly as the actual game is on my laptop.] Possibly I also successfully defended Ismail. Know I did lose one of those provinces in the north early, think it was Alytus which meant that Saiuliau could be attacked from three provinces and I feared that the north of the line would collapse but despite some bitter battles there the rest of the line held and by the late autumn the Germans were so blooded that I was holding the line fairly easily.

In terms of production/research and the like I tend to do a lot of infra and 10 lines of factories, although most of those are stopped once the non-purge dissent hits and generally only Moscow keeps producing during the 40-42 period while resources are at their tightest. As well as main production and resource centres I try to get the front defensive line and a link between it and Moscow as high infra as possible, largely to make reorging as efficient as I can. Sometimes change the Chief of Staff to one of the +20% Org regaining people to help here. Although I think in my last game I never got around to it and kept the +25% manpower man there.

I develop a broad range of production technology and prioritise Inf and related tech, i.e. AT and Art brigades. Normally seek to push for max war Hawk and drafted army - the latter partly historical and partly for the cheaper production, although I think standing army might be better in the longer run.

Early on, while I don't scrap any units and produce some transports and escorts for the amphibious attacks on Finland plus some motorised IIRC for that the only other units I produce are some either Cav or Gar/Pol to help in dissent suppression of the key production/resource areas when I reject the purge. Its about mid-late 40 when I get Inf 41 that I start mass producing INF 41 with either Art, in most cases, some AT and a few Eng brigades, along with reallocating some of the already existing ones. I also have two lines of Mtn divs with similar brigades as I like to stiffen the hills at the south of the line with a couple of Mtn armies. Also some motorised or mech - can't remember which - for quick response. Aim was to have ~140/150 Inf 41 divs about 24 Mtn and as many mobile units as I can. The latter usually with SP Art. Want an army of 9-12 brigaded Inf, one of which is a Eng for the level 40 entrenchment in each province of the defensive line with corps of other and of mobile units to reinforce where attacked. This means a lot of the line may be quiet as the Germans will only attack certain points but it gives security and also, if the supply is available I can provide artillery support by pounding the attackers to do some damage and reduce the infra of those provinces. Think I was some way short of this with only 9 Inf divs or possibly 6 in some places when the Germans attacked but managed to hold.

IIRC I hadn't built any new armour at this point as I simply didn't have the time/IC. This was my 1st game for a time and 1st with v1.10 so wasn't as find tuned as it could be. Also didn't really have any new air other than some INTs that I rarely used as they tended to get swamped and my ground troops were able to withstand the air attacks. [Had built a radar in most front line provinces and a number of AA which probably helped.

Anyway that was the gist of my plan, with probably a lot I've forgotten. :oops: If anyone finds it useful.

Actually my initial inspiration was trekaddicts excellent "Against all Odds" AAR and I would love to try something like that some day but I've never gotten around to playing anyone but the Soviets so this seems increasingly unlikely.:( Not sure how good I would be at mastering the naval side of things let alone defending the empire against Germany, Russia and Japan, even with some starting boosts.
 

Pioniere

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I invaded usa from Mexico with Italy some years ago that was fun and UK was somewhat harder to invaded than us.
 

Dr. Whitehall

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I blitzed everything so fast, that I got Bitter Peace in late November '39. (got Poland, BeNeLux and France of course)
I was playing the Improved1936 mod and I didn't build any ship or aircraft, which postponed Sea Lion and the US invasion to mid '41. But that was the fastest I ever got.

In your first post: did you beat the USSR or did you focus on the Allies first? Did you abuse the AI in any way (like land paratroopers in undefended Cardiff and then land there with TP)?
 

MJF

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I blitzed everything so fast, that I got Bitter Peace in late November '39. (got Poland, BeNeLux and France of course)
I was playing the Improved1936 mod and I didn't build any ship or aircraft, which postponed Sea Lion and the US invasion to mid '41. But that was the fastest I ever got.
Impressive, esp with a mod.

In your first post: did you beat the USSR or did you focus on the Allies first?
I like to try to complete Sealion, Spain, and E. Europe, then invade USSR by mid-late summer 1940, but this plan requires a massive sub fleet and S. I. doctrine, or 4 CV IVs, some BCs and subs, and B. S. doctrine; not to mention 15+ TP ships
Did you abuse the AI in any way (like land paratroopers in undefended Cardiff and then land there with TP)?
No. Sealion needs 3-6 marine divisions to work. I never get around to PARs until late -- '43-44.. Miss them - sometimes. Since I frown on PARs, I didn't even think of that trick. Plymouth at times is often well-defended, even with a big UK stack. However, Not that day.
 
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Mr_B0narpte

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The AoD memory that sticks out for me is the end game of a USA & USSR v. Germany historical online game. The Soviets (me) and the Germans had been battling it out for two years with the USSR firmly on the defensive as the Germans had taken so many Soviet lives and deprived the motherland of crucial industry. However the Red Army remained strong enough to prevent a complete collapse. After joining the war in late 1941, the USA had a lot resting on its shoulders. Alongside the UK (AI controlled but MCed) it had taken North Africa and deprived the Axis of any holdings outside Europe by the crucial month of June 1943.

After many attempts at Allied landings in Europe the Atlantic Wall appeared impenetrable. However Roosevelt and the US Air Force Generals had a sublime yet incredibly risky solution. After many months of planning the Operation Market Gardens was put in motion. An estimated 200,000 men were paradropped all across Germany, which quickly took control of much of it's industry. It's industrial output dropped from around 500 IC to 250 in the space of a day. One of the landings included was a coastal province which didn't have a beach and therefore over looked by the Germans. Soon after the Western Allies landed over a million men in that province and Germany's days were numbered from that point on.
 

MJF

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Wow!
 

Commander666

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Paratroopers rule supreme! How many divisions did you have -20?
 

Mr_B0narpte

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Paratroopers rule supreme! How many divisions did you have -20?
I was the USSR so could only watch the havoc unfold from afar, but I think it was around 10-20 German provinces that were captured all at once, this was years ago now. But we did have the rule that paratroopers can only be dropped on undefended provinces due to the distorted game mechanics for paradrops. Lennartos has said this will be fixed in the next beta.
 

Commander666

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I follow the same rule unless it is a drop on surrounded enemy with no retreat - where it doesn't matter.

Other than landing on unoccupied places, I suppose my most valuable use of PAR is landing on enemy province right after battle has been won. But this needs really good timing to land without attacking a new enemy unit which just entered the province. If done successfully, it does stop all enemy trying to get into that province while your forces - who were attacking - can seize the province when they get there.

But often the PARs pay a terrible price because they might be getting attacked by many enemy from multiple angles. But it does nicely stop the repetition of province won... "no", now we are again attacking that province.

A fix for the distorted mechanics would be great. You once explained that but I forget. Was that about landing PAR to block enemy retreaters?
 

Mr_B0narpte

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But often the PARs pay a terrible price because they might be getting attacked by many enemy from multiple angles. But it does nicely stop the repetition of province won... "no", now we are again attacking that province.

A fix for the distorted mechanics would be great. You once explained that but I forget. Was that about landing PAR to block enemy retreaters?
The price they pay is never that high considering the mechanics, mcganyol outlined them here - https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/paratroopers-geneal.658131/
 

MJF

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Paratroopers should only be allowed to have engineer brigades -- if that. This would "solve" many issues, no?
 

vitality

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I've not bothered to use Paratroopers in a long while because
a) The most overpowered unit in the game, if exploiting the weaknesses in the mechanics. Now I see why some or most would like this, personally I get bored after beating the game with such tricks and try to play by my own house rules.
b) To use them in a historically realistic fashion does turn them into a gimmick thats too expensive for what you get out of it though.

Paratroopers used at their full potential (i.e. sniping enemy capitals and other badly defended key points, using them to completely wipe out huge stacks by cutting them off). This is taking advantage of the game mechanics that naturally can't replicate every aspect of WW2 combat and logistics.

In the game the Para division can instantly organize, occupy and defend an urban province its dropped on because the enemy have no division sitting in the province.

Because in the game the paratroopers are basically a division that can be teleported anywhere within range of the plane. It's dropped from a plane and appears instantly as a division that is capable of effectively functioning in combat. In real life dropping ten thousand paratroopers and then organising them into a coherent division is a highly complex manouver. It's theoretically possible but there are huge practical difficulties.

The first being that any target of significance, especially a large city, would've been garrisoned by at least the military officers working at rear services and by police and home guard. But because those things are not which are not simulated in the game. (Also air defences only damage the air division and doesn't reduce the strength of the airbourne division inside it, iirc)

The second is the terrain, here the game truly drops the ball on simulating the differences. It's like dropping on a flat plain without people, buildings, rivers, trees every time. Regardless of urban, mountain or forests etc.

The example of as Germany dropping a Paratrooper division on Paris as Commander shows in his AAR illustrates this well. In real life this would be a complete disaster for an entire division to drop on top of Paris. Paris airdefences and other rear units would decimate the division before it its the ground. The Individual soldiers who made it to the ground would be trapped in a maze of buildings and streets, navigating and remaining undetected would be impossible. Most would likely get overpowered by civilians and police before they had time to link up with their companies in the chaos of a multi-million person city. It would have been impossible for a German paratrooper division in real life to function as a division in this situation. The casualties would probably be close to 50% hours into the operation. The best troops would be able to stay alive for a while, but without the necessary crates of supplies being retrieved, command structures and communications in complete shambles. Just attempting to capture strategic objective would be unthinkable.
 
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Mr_B0narpte

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Paratroopers should only be allowed to have engineer brigades -- if that. This would "solve" many issues, no?
It would help make them more realistic, but that doesn't solve the over-command problem, please read it as outlined in my link in my previous post.

I've not bothered to use Paratroopers in a long while because...
Agreed on historical grounds, but not playability. You might as well not have paratroopers. When fixed, given their extreme cost - alongside the cost of transport planes - I would say they are relatively balanced. Maybe the presence of AA guns in the target province could impact the strength of the unit upon landing, but given the mechanics that seems hard to replicate.

EDIT after talking to Jarski about it (kudos to him, his idea!): Also increasing the org hit when performing airborne assaults would help replicate the disorganisation. Perhaps divisions losing 70% of their org, with it quickly being regained otherwise it has little chance of survival in the face of nearby enemy units.
 
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Commander666

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I agree it is a problem when defenders become the "attackers of the para" and get crazy over-command is all wrong. Exactly why paratroopers should not be used to drop on top of enemy IF in conjunction with a ground attack.

But the other side of paratroopers seems somewhat mis-represented by some of the comments I read. I like to point out that it is very easy to lose a para. Player just needs to make the right mistakes. The first mistake is dropping them on an enemy unit (let's take example of isolated enemy unit so we have no problem of other enemy rushing to reinforce). Let's use a practical example: After D-Day, UK player wants to open up Kattegat Straits the quick way by dropping the British 1st Airborne division on Copenhagen where a lone German GAR/art sits while the British ground troops are battling towards Berlin (currently in mid-Belgium). First of all, a single para will not win that attack on Copenhagen, and die. The British player will need very strong interdiction to have the para win (but does he have an airbase in range?). I know this because I was the UK player who did this.

Next scenario - as I showed twice in the AAR. Drop para behind enemy lines. Attack him with a few enemy from a couple sides, and he will die. I don't understand the comment I read elsewhere about "para retreating thru fortified enemy line". There is no such thing AFAIK. Also, paras do not have endless supply. They need TRA flying in supply AFAIK.

Next scenario - place a para on ground and he acts pretty much like any other ground troop as regards ability to defend. I do not understand the comment I read elsewhere that a para can hold back 50 divisions. Yes they are a powerful defensive unit, but 3 ARM takes them out easily, AFAIK.

Finally, dropping the para on Paris. Please note that in my AAR Paris was under attack by about 8 Wehrmacht divisions from six sides for several hours before the para flew. All the French defenders had been eliminated (surrendered I suppose) before the para flew. Further, all those surrounding German divisions are actually in the province of Paris. Its not just a city. Paras IRL would have little problem being the first units that the city was surrendered to. IRL it was declared "open" to surrender it. And I am sure if paras can land as a coherent fighting unit on top of that fort in Belgium as they did IRL, they certainly can land in gliders as a coherent fighting force on the different parks and fields around and in the city proper of Paris and have control. So maybe the problem with paratroopers is that they got those parachutes when half the time they never even landed like that? :)

Landing on Belgium fort copy.jpg

Battle for Fort Eben Emael, Part of the Battle of Belgium , May 10-11, 1940
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Fort_Eben-Emael

PS: These guys look pretty orged! But yes, paras lost a lot of their force in landing be it gliders shot down, lost enroute because of weather or crashed on landing; and parachutists had it even worse. Still, they nearly always achieved their difficult objectives IRL.
 
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Mr_B0narpte

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no, not really. the original defenders of the province will still remain defenders. para can block any incoming reinforments tough, by making them attackers of the province also (and all of these attackers will have overcommand penalty as a bug).
to make it clear your units combat effectivness is modified by many factors, if you para to maginot and attack the same time on land the following will happen:
your para will have attacking modifiers, but not affected by land fort penalty,
your land units will have attacking modifiers, affected by land fort penalty,
his troops in the current province will have defensive modifiers,
his support troops coming to the province by any means (support def., moving them, para) will have attacking modifiers, land fort penalty plus overcommand penalty. (this usually means something like 2/10percent effectivness)

This translates if the province was garrisoned with 20divs before the attack, it wont help u much, but if it was on say 3divs, para will save the day, basically no matter what overwhelming odds it need to face, it can hold easily 50attacking divs from 3adjancment provinces for weeks.

Para is not used to run out of supplies, it is "recharging" just as your other units (very odd behind enemy lines tough). Even if things get rough, and its org drops to zero, you can safely withdraw them, they are absolutely not in grave-danger for a minute. You may use them on VoV, so even with 0 org, they simply wont break, nor lose strength very fast.
This is the full quote you're referring too. As the attacking 50 divisions each have a -75 over-command penalty plus a land fortification attack penalty their effectiveness is severely reduced.

However I agree with most of your post, and cool picture!