What's Wrong With these "City Simulators?"

[CalPolyFan]

(This one looks good, had to add it, because I have never played CitiesXL, and will give them the benefit of the doubt.. Some version of Cities XL look alright.

I have to admit, Cities XL looks interesting, and as I will definitely be buying Cities Skylines (baring some sort of Sim City 5 esque deviation from what the fan base is expecting).. Cities XL also looks kind of interesting now that i've searched for more images..

The problem I have is when a skyline develops incorrectly.. you get a ton of huge skyscrapers, there doesn't seem to be a central CBD, and there are way too many skyscrapers for the city's actual size. I really don't like playing games that have that kind of issue, and I hope "being rewarded with a taller skyline" instead of "getting a taller skyline for doing nothing" becomes more of a them.

Like I said before, EVERY SINGLE story increase in building height should correspond with a formula that involves:

1. Population
2. Strength of economy of the city
3. Interconnectedness
4. Education Quotent
5. Income
6. Land value
7. Environmental factors
8. Proximity to Mass Transit and transit, including ports, airports, train stations, bus stops, subway lines.
9. Cities total industrial/commercial GDP

There aren't very many cities in the world (outside Brazil) that have skylines that are a bunch of mid-sized residential towers.. most cities in the world you have to have a VERY large city before you start getting any skyscrapers, and those skyscrapers are always in a cluster, or multiple clutstered areas.

This "concept art" of Sim City 5 got it right.. a gradually increasing skyline centered around economic forces, causing land values to support taller buildings reaching an apex.. which is NOT what we find in most "city building" games to date.

I have no problem with "multiple CBD clusters" as is displayed in Metropolitan Areas such as Minneapolis/St. Paul, Duluth/Superior, Los Angeles (with a lot of smaller clustered CBDs and high rise areas surrounding the central CBD) - New York - Midtown and Uptown, London- Canary Warf and Downtown, etc. etc.. It's just that CBD "clustering" is a real thing that real cities do, and a number of factors should be incorporated.

Getting buildings of 4, 5, 6, + stories too early in a small looking city is just so goofy and fake looking.. like I said, there should be a formula that uses the above factors, and only rewards taller buildings (be they residential or commercial, different rubric could be used) only when a player's city reaches a certain size and stature.. that is a fundamental part of the fun for most city building fans, including myself.. and it is often an easily "overlooked" element of the simulation.

 

[Stevo Wallis]

Re: Cities XL. Take a look on the XLNation site at the City Journals section. This is where forum members show off their cities. The cities on there are mind blowing. Some people have such artistic talent. My cities always look like crap. But if you know what you're doing, Cities XL is by far the most realistic city building game.
I understand and agree with what you are saying. But people want freedom. Some like to plop every building. Others like to build a map of skyscrapers. I guess that's where the artistic talent comes in. When a game like Skylines reduces the control over the zoning then your point becomes even more valid.

 

[CalPolyFan]

Re: Cities XL. Take a look on the XLNation site at the City Journals section. This is where forum members show off their cities. The cities on there are mind blowing. Some people have such artistic talent. My cities always look like crap. But if you know what you're doing, Cities XL is by far the most realistic city building game.
I understand and agree with what you are saying. But people want freedom. Some like to plop every building. Others like to build a map of skyscrapers. I guess that's where the artistic talent comes in. When a game like Skylines reduces the control over the zoning then your point becomes even more valid.

Well, I'm not saying people can't plop all the buildings they want - I definitely think that should be included.

What I am talking about is making the "City Simulation" and building height simulator as appropriate and close to real-life regarding the commercial and stature requirements that "create taller buildings" and the patterns that cause high rise buildings, and especially CBDs.. If this game gets that right- instead of creating the "high rise flat-top city" that has doomed so many recent city builders, they will have a serious winner is all I'm saying..

and of course, players can plop their own buildings as well..

 

[Stevo Wallis]

I know what you mean and I agree. As I've posted in another thread, I like to build LA Metro styled cities. Small High density downtown surrounded by medium density, then mostly low density sprawl. From what the Dev's have explained in the Medium Density Petition thread, the high density only turns into skyscrapers if the right conditions are met, land value etc. We also have a nice little control for the heights of buildings in each district. Hopefully there will be a nice transition from medium height buildings to skyscrapers in the high density zones. Hopefully there will be a limit to how many skyscrapers develop, based on how developed the rest of the city is.

 

[zorkman]

Agree with O.P.

 

[wakko2k]

The thing with cities xl isnt that its a bad game per se, the problem lies that it is singlethreaded which means it only uses one core of your processor. This makes it lag when you have a bigger city. And the devs doesnt seem to want to make it multithreaded

 

[Goldiva]

I don't recall CXL has a land value aspect. I do recall seeing the horrors that is endless towers on Planet Offer within a week. The game creator's unlimited sprawl mindset draw in their type.

I'm just glad CO has confirmed building height control by district, the single most powerful tool in real life urban-planning. You can do A LOT more than controlling the skyline shape with Height by District. Once you get to control Plot Ratio (Density/Height by Area), you get to manipulate LAND VALUE, you control the city's skyline shape and economy types. Want educated/rich people to move in, purposely declare a popular area low density low height. Want lots of blue collars, declare an area with little amenities a high density high rise only... Etc..

 

[Person012345]

You should have the freedom to do whatever you want, within reason. City builders are creative games as much as they are anything else in my opinion. If you want to create a city with realistic proportions then you should be able to do that. But you should also be able to have a map full of skyscrapers if you spend the time and effort to get it. I don't want forced realistic proportions, that would just make every city the same and that would get old very quickly.

 

[Metropolitan]

Transport accessibility is the primary key of land value.

That is something which is not necessarily easy to model but which drastically help to develop a natural, organic and realistic city. If you develop a giant motorway grid covering huge distances with no central nod, your city will sprawl with no skyscrapers emerging, only individual houses and business campuses. If on the other side you focus your transportation network on a central hub, the land value will rise exactly there and skyscrapers will appear, for the sole reason that point is the most accessible for anyone.

I will just give you a story. Before London built its underground, the land value was very high in downtown and very poor outside of it. In order to finance the underground central part of the urban rail system, companies have bought terrains in the outside fringe with the plan to expand the lines overground and sell those terrains back, now that their value increased as they became reachable for people working within the city.

If you want cities to develop organically and realistically, this is the key element to take into account.

 

[charlesnew]

You should have the freedom to do whatever you want, within reason. City builders are creative games as much as they are anything else in my opinion. If you want to create a city with realistic proportions then you should be able to do that. But you should also be able to have a map full of skyscrapers if you spend the time and effort to get it. I don't want forced realistic proportions, that would just make every city the same and that would get old very quickly.

Then you can set a max height policy for your whole city to be skyscrapers.

Also, a city made completely out of skyscrapers or high rise apartments isn't unrealistic, there are lots of cities in real life like that.
But I understand what you mean. Sometimes, you want to build something unrealistic and weird.

 

[Metropolitan]

Also, a city made completely out of skyscrapers or high rise apartments isn't unrealistic, there are lots of cities in real life like that.
But I understand what you mean. Sometimes, you want to build something unrealistic and weird.

Sometimes height restrictions also play a pervert role on the market. If you take for instance Paris, the transportation network is largely concentrated in the central city, which is thus the most attractive part of the urban area. But the height restrictions make the prices skyrocket which as a result exclude the lower and middle classes out of it... those being forced to move to peripheral areas which are not so well connected. Too many constraints on construction despite high demand is detrimental for a city as it prevents supply to meet demand, artificially increases land value and thus generate insatisfaction among the lower and middle classes (long transit time, reduced purchasing power because of high real estate prices).

If height restrictions would be well implemented in the game, this aspect should be taken in consideration.

 

[Hinforta]

Totally agree with the OP.

 

[Person012345]

Then you can set a max height policy for your whole city to be skyscrapers.

Yes but that's not what the OP is asking for.

I get that you should be able to do it with the current game (aside from how the population limit works that as far as I'm aware we don't know yet).

 

[ExtraNoise]

I completely agree with you OP. I hate when city simulators become "how many skyscrapers can you get" games. Don't get me wrong, I love skyscrapers. But I want to work for them. I want it to take more than just a few hours to get all of them. Ideally I'd like for skyscrapers to be a late-game goal once I've accomplished other goals on my list, such as establishing and supporting a viable community. Each time a new "tallest" building is built (whether that be a mid-rise, a tall-rise, or then a skyscraper), I want to be excited that I did something to "earn" that building. That I planned a good city.

Regarding Cities XL: The thing I hated most was the interface, actually. It was bad. And the English localization was bad. And the way that the people were cartoony but all the buildings and vehicles seemed fairly realistic. It said to me their development team didn't care and ultimately it felt like they didn't care about the simulation either.

 

[CalPolyFan]

I completely agree with you OP. I hate when city simulators become "how many skyscrapers can you get" games. Don't get me wrong, I love skyscrapers. But I want to work for them. I want it to take more than just a few hours to get all of them. Ideally I'd like for skyscrapers to be a late-game goal once I've accomplished other goals on my list, such as establishing and supporting a viable community. Each time a new "tallest" building is built (whether that be a mid-rise, a tall-rise, or then a skyscraper), I want to be excited that I did something to "earn" that building. That I planned a good city.

Regarding Cities XL: The thing I hated most was the interface, actually. It was bad. And the English localization was bad. And the way that the people were cartoony but all the buildings and vehicles seemed fairly realistic. It said to me their development team didn't care and ultimately it felt like they didn't care about the simulation either.

Perhaps, even like the original Sim City on NES did was when your city reaches a certain size, the music changes a bit more.. a more ominous / big city oriented soundtrack.. not huge changes, but subtle. I know it's harder to do with a larger amount of songs, but just an idea.

Also, people like getting rewarded for reaching new stages, and different benchmarks should be achieved.

Population: 1,000 people 10,000 50,000 100,000 200,000 500,000 a million 1.5, 2 Million etc. so on.. Perhaps with a reward.

Economic: Rewards for having booming trade, or reaching a certain GDP, length of track, length of road, volume of seaport commerce, or having an interconnected rail hub, or airport etc.

Building Height: Players should also be awarded when reaching benchmarks for building/high rise height.. Every story increase in the skyline should be exciting- like you said.. There are many cities where buildings get up to about 3 or 4 stories without having a large economy, but taller than that there needs to be a larger population, and economy and players should have to work for a skyline, but most importantly there should be forces "focusing" a skyline like happen in real life.

Also, buildings taller than 3 or 4 stories shouldn't really happen except for in the more "downtown" areas which have a CBD factor driving their development.

That is where so many "city building simulations" have failed completely.

ONLY when a city was interconnected with proper road/rail and airport, and also (as a bonus) a port will they start to get taller commercial buildings.

Every 10 or so stories, players could get kudos for having a growing skyline.. maybe unlocking something, maybe not.

 

[jumonjii]

CXL is fun but buggie. The micromanaging isn't there.

SC limits you city size and almost forces you to upgrade everything to skyscrapers the longer you play.

 

[charlesnew]

I agree with all of this. Skyscrapers are more of a reward than anything, really (other than jobs ). SimCity 2013 limits you so much, that it forces you to put skyscrapers everywhere, and that's one of the disappointments for me of the game.

 

[Viljainen]

Cities XL has a memory leak or some other bug that makes the big cities slow down to a crawl. That leak is reset every time you reload the city but if you have anything like the cities in the pictures you have to be reloading every 15 mins or so. Not fun.

 

[Stevo Wallis]

Cities XL has a memory leak or some other bug that makes the big cities slow down to a crawl. That leak is reset every time you reload the city but if you have anything like the cities in the pictures you have to be reloading every 15 mins or so. Not fun.

You can change the ram used from 2048 to 4096 in the GlobalSettings.cfg file. This makes a difference. I'm running a city of 1.88m. It takes up about half the map and plays nice on a 3.9GHz core for about 2hrs on overhead view on max graphics setting. Put it on side view and it slows dramatically.

 

[cd concept]

(This one looks good, had to add it, because I have never played CitiesXL, and will give them the benefit of the doubt.. Some version of Cities XL look alright.

I have to admit, Cities XL looks interesting, and as I will definitely be buying Cities Skylines (baring some sort of Sim City 5 esque deviation from what the fan base is expecting).. Cities XL also looks kind of interesting now that i've searched for more images..

The problem I have is when a skyline develops incorrectly.. you get a ton of huge skyscrapers, there doesn't seem to be a central CBD, and there are way too many skyscrapers for the city's actual size. I really don't like playing games that have that kind of issue, and I hope "being rewarded with a taller skyline" instead of "getting a taller skyline for doing nothing" becomes more of a them.

Like I said before, EVERY SINGLE story increase in building height should correspond with a formula that involves:

1. Population
2. Strength of economy of the city
3. Interconnectedness
4. Education Quotent
5. Income
6. Land value
7. Environmental factors
8. Proximity to Mass Transit and transit, including ports, airports, train stations, bus stops, subway lines.
9. Cities total industrial/commercial GDP

There aren't very many cities in the world (outside Brazil) that have skylines that are a bunch of mid-sized residential towers.. most cities in the world you have to have a VERY large city before you start getting any skyscrapers, and those skyscrapers are always in a cluster, or multiple clutstered areas.

This "concept art" of Sim City 5 got it right.. a gradually increasing skyline centered around economic forces, causing land values to support taller buildings reaching an apex.. which is NOT what we find in most "city building" games to date.

I have no problem with "multiple CBD clusters" as is displayed in Metropolitan Areas such as Minneapolis/St. Paul, Duluth/Superior, Los Angeles (with a lot of smaller clustered CBDs and high rise areas surrounding the central CBD) - New York - Midtown and Uptown, London- Canary Warf and Downtown, etc. etc.. It's just that CBD "clustering" is a real thing that real cities do, and a number of factors should be incorporated.

Getting buildings of 4, 5, 6, + stories too early in a small looking city is just so goofy and fake looking.. like I said, there should be a formula that uses the above factors, and only rewards taller buildings (be they residential or commercial, different rubric could be used) only when a player's city reaches a certain size and stature.. that is a fundamental part of the fun for most city building fans, including myself.. and it is often an easily "overlooked" element of the simulation.

What you said makes perfect sense. I couldn't of said it better myself. Your ideas are what serious city builder players like you and I would like to see in a game . But I thinks they create these games for the simple minded player to have fun with. That why serious players like us argue the point of issues. When I saw the head of the CEO connect the plumbing to the town like she was connecting the dots in that alpha game presentation, it irritated me. If you've read any of mine or other articles about this .We've all said the the plumbing etc. should be placed under the street that connects to the main primary road with all necessities. Don't do something that been done before years ago. Since you talk about serious skylines. My favorite is the cities in motion 2. A map that was created by a person called Paris and Sarnia Ontario Canada. Being located in Ontario that looks quite realistic to me with its crafted golf courses, parks and farm land in the country area . l love studying maps of cities and towns my country as well as others. The linear design of the roads shows the age of a city or town.