You can still have the cap, regardless of when the institution forms. Saying that, look maybe it shouldn't. After all, how else would a couple of hundred sailors/marines in British gunboats have taken over many places in Africa and Asia?
What's wrong with institutions system
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You can still have the cap, regardless of when the institution forms. Saying that, look maybe it shouldn't. After all, how else would a couple of hundred sailors/marines in British gunboats have taken over many places in Africa and Asia?
Those years are the earliest that an institution can appear AFAIK. I have the institutions appeared always a few years later.
I 100% agree with this. One time boost does not make sense. It should be a boost on the spreading speed. I wish the tool-tip would show the impact of the development level of the province as well, not just the bonus from 10 or 20 development levels.
And I like that the spread speed is faster when there are more than one bordering provinces with an embraced institution. I don't know if it makes sense if you get some boost if your bordering province (your own), has more than 50% progress???
I also think if the capital is embraced the institution, there can be another modifier to boost the spread in every province and an extra reduction with the embracement cost.
Personally I feel there should be a positive spread modifier for provinces in the same trade node as someone who has embraced the institution seeing as trade was how most ideas were spread during the game's period.
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https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/institution-spread-more-natural.975194/
Thats what i suggested as a change.
Thats what i suggested as a change.
I dunno. I think the institutions spread too quickly as it is. If a nation makes a particular push to do so, then there should be scope for this to happen - but I'm not so sure about most of Africa or Asia being on a par with Europe in 1700.
Even the much vaunted Chinese stagnated for centuries despite their early lead.
Completely agree with the trade node aspect though. That's how ideas spread in the past.
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You know, I've been looking over the requirements for institutions and it seems that a Protestant, Colonial, Genoa is primed to get many, if not, all institutions started in its territory due to the following.
Located in Italy (Renaissance)
Could reach the New World (Colonialism)
Protestant (Printing Press) [Least likely, but non zero chance of it happening]
Good Center of Trade in Genoa (Global Trade)
High Income for building manufactories (Manufactories)
High Income for building Universities (Enlightenment)
Not guaranteed, mind you, but it seems to be possible. Is there something that stops a country from getting more than one institution started in its territory?
Located in Italy (Renaissance)
Could reach the New World (Colonialism)
Protestant (Printing Press) [Least likely, but non zero chance of it happening]
Good Center of Trade in Genoa (Global Trade)
High Income for building manufactories (Manufactories)
High Income for building Universities (Enlightenment)
Not guaranteed, mind you, but it seems to be possible. Is there something that stops a country from getting more than one institution started in its territory?
Is it intend that if you change your relationship from "friendly on automatic atitude" to negative (hostile) to slow down the institution growth to a certain neighborhood. The institution spreader modifier will STAY at friendly no matter what you do?
@Trin Tragula
@Trin Tragula
So i ask:
Whats the point of the new system? Surely i cant be to have half the world even further behind in tech then in the old days of westernization?
Africa and Asia were nearly or full on par with europe many times pre 1.18.
You had one slipup, one Muscovy or even the Ottomans touching India with their finger and the chain of westernization starts.
Right now in 1650 and 1700 spawn the two institutions which grow like wildfire everywhere.
Before that most of the world is miles behind in tech. We are talking the renaissance taking until after 1550 to reach India. Their only saving grace in many cases is Portugal with the Goa event.
When i say "100 years to reach most of the world" that still leaves "most of the world" with 50+ techpenalty until
1650.
And those "vaunted chinese". I dont care how backwater they were in our world in 1800.
I want them to be atleast somewhat on par in tech towards the end of the game.
Right now, if every institution spawns around Europe, everything beyond the Ottomans is just food for the Europeans.
While what you proposed makes some sense, it also makes the game lamer. OK, so as long as you colonize you always get Colonialism. As long as you are protestant you always get Printing Press? That's just a flat buff to colonizers and Protestants. Flat buffs are boring.
Dynamism is fun. Too much dynamism is harmful. We have ahead-of-time penalty for technology for a reason, so even the godlike Ottoman rules at the game beginning wouldn't be able to push their military technology to rock science.
Like it or not, it's the only sensible way to set the cost. Low development land is already less useful, and already slower to receive institution spread. Yet another nerf is unnecessary.
Real world has similar patterns too. The Seoul capital area of South Korea has a population of ~25M, which is about half of the population of the whole country. How is the real world unrealistic?
Even during EU4 age, big cities with much higher population density than their neighbor areas where a thing.
Enemy/Rival/Ally diplomacy relations: we do differentiate friendly/unfriendly neighbors.
Estates and religions have *some* impacts on institution spreading: Protestant and Reformed boost Printing Press, while Fetishists in contact with Muslims have a fetish option that somehow helps institution spreading too.
Just wanted to leave some comments here to help the discussion
Just in case you are not aware (as what you say is still entirely true for the earlier ones) the later institutions grow independently all over the world in whatever provinces fit certain criteria. Global Trade spreads from all Centers of Trade and even grows slowly in all provinces with trade buildings. Manufactories spread from all provinces with manufactories and so on.
Institution spread is scaled by development. It spreads _much_ faster through high development provinces than it does through low development ones. Even with the exact same conditions being true high development means it is embraced much faster. The money cost is based on how much of your total development lacks the institution so waiting for that spread through your high development areas can certainly be worth it.
Actually loyal burghers help spread Global Trade in their provinces (as you can see in the ingame tooltips), loyal nobles help spread feudalism in their provinces and loyal clergy helps the spread of the Printing Press in their provinces. The boosts may be a bit small though
Diplomatic relations is likely the biggest impact you can have for province to province spread. Friendly (ie not negative relations) countries are the only ones that can spread institutions over water to you and they also have a much higher base spread speed than any other neighbor province would (basically the same as between your own provinces).
You're missing an essential part from the loyal estates criteria - Your Capital also has to be in Europe.
Personally I like the conditions criteria of the last 3 vs. the more or less "be in western europe or develop" that defines the 3 after Feudalism. Colonialism is somewhat of an exception, however being gated to new world CNs vs just regular colonies anywhere does put the focus on western europe outside of some minor exceptions such as the berbers. Renaissance and Printing Press on the other hand essentially require you to develop for them which is more or less creating mini-westernizations unless you tentacle for them. It would be nice if there was a small modifier for those to tick in a 20+ or 30+ developed province not in europe. Still difficult and slow for it to tick outside of europe, but it at least gives another option to just spam develop a province for it to suddenly appear.
I like institutions quite a bit, don't get me wrong. Just those two in particular are rather big bummers compared to things like Global Trade and Manufactories. GT and factory institutions are more or less what I imagined when you guys first announced institutions.