What's wrong with 4X - an interesting podcast I found

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Alexander Seil

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It's old as dirt (2013), but I only just found it now. A very interesting discussion about what makes for flavor in 4X games, what went right with MoO and what went horribly wrong with space 4X games in the last 20 years.

https://www.idlethumbs.net/3ma/episodes/lost-in-space
 
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Beric

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Beric

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Just wanted to update that this was a very good podcast, and I fully agree with the speakers: game developers are trapped in trying to live up to expectations of improving on the MoO nostalgia, and as such the genre has greatly suffered from a lack of innovation.

I'm curious to hear what Rob/Paul will think of Stellaris. It sounds like they're fans of Paradox games, and most of the issues they've had with 4X games do seem to be addressed in Stellaris. A big one for sure is events and internal strife which give your empire character and seem quite lacking from most other games.
 
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ParagonExile

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The worst thing that ever happened to 4X was Master of Orion.

It was a fun game, but soooooooo many games following it tried to copy it instead of innovating and making something new. It was the same situation that we faced with World War 2 games in the early 2000's and later with Call of Duty modern day military shooters; a single series or idea being copied and fleshed out indefinitely until the next paradigm followed.

Ultimately what the genre needed(needs) was to get out of the shadow of MoO and Civilization.

If the podcast doesn't mention this I'll be mad.

EDIT: Welp it did. Glad.
 
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WolfStark

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I have to disagree, I think the problem was more, that most games didn*t really understand Master of Orion. Yes they copied a lot of stuff but not what made Master of Orion great. Even though MoO 2 was extremely unbalanced, it was very easy to understand, it had a certain style to it, it was campy and fun but not in the sense hammered in humor (e.g. StarDrive). It had pretty much a perfect mix and the reason why so many games failed or were just nice was that they used a template and then went off without understanding how important that mix was. One of my personal problems for most of the time was the appearance of the games, the races looked often really bad, especially with 3D involved. I think Master of Orion 2 did the best job possible in terms of presentation, the animated 2D-leaders, scientists ect. of the factions were as diverse as unique, while still preserving a familiar feeling. The universe felt like Star Trek, Babylon 5 or Flash Gordon, not like X-Files. And it wasn't just the races but the interface too. There was a certain design, not like today where decoration isn't allowed, where everything has to glow or shine or has to be a one-colored/transparent square. The scientist really had a background and it wasn't like a laboratory in CSI with blue filter, no it looked totally normal and even the hologram was in color.

Most 4X didn't interest me, because they didn't care for the look and feel. All in all I think they did a great job in trying something new gameplay wise, making it more complex but they didn't cared about usability and presentation.
 
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SgtSmuckers

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It was a fun game, but soooooooo many games following it tried to copy it instead of innovating and making something new. It was the same situation that we faced with World War 2 games in the early 2000's and later with Call of Duty modern day military shooters; a single series or idea being copied and fleshed out indefinitely until the next paradigm followed.

I concur. It appears for every great work, there will be countless imitations until another great piece is made and the cycle repeats.

So many would rather repeat history than to create it, for very many impose limitations on their ideas and themselves.
 

Oscot

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Will I understand this if I have never played any Masters of Orion?
 

Beric

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I have to disagree, I think the problem was more, that most games didn*t really understand Master of Orion. Yes they copied a lot of stuff but not what made Master of Orion great. Even though MoO 2 was extremely unbalanced, it was very easy to understand, it had a certain style to it, it was campy and fun but not in the sense hammered in humor (e.g. StarDrive). It had pretty much a perfect mix and the reason why so many games failed or were just nice was that they used a template and then went off without understanding how important that mix was. One of my personal problems for most of the time was the appearance of the games, the races looked often really bad, especially with 3D involved. I think Master of Orion 2 did the best job possible in terms of presentation, the animated 2D-leaders, scientists ect. of the factions were as diverse as unique, while still preserving a familiar feeling. The universe felt like Star Trek, Babylon 5 or Flash Gordon, not like X-Files. And it wasn't just the races but the interface too. There was a certain design, not like today where decoration isn't allowed, where everything has to glow or shine or has to be a one-colored/transparent square. The scientist really had a background and it wasn't like a laboratory in CSI with blue filter, no it looked totally normal and even the hologram was in color.

Most 4X didn't interest me, because they didn't care for the look and feel. All in all I think they did a great job in trying something new gameplay wise, making it more complex but they didn't cared about usability and presentation.

Not sure if you listened to the podcast but Paul takes pretty much this perspective - he argues that the uniqueness of the universe/races hasn't really been replicated since MoO2. He's a MoO fanboy, Rob isn't. Both of them don't seem to be big fans of really any space 4X games since then.

Will I understand this if I have never played any Masters of Orion?

I think you will. I've only played a couple games of MoO2 (and barely remember them) but I didn't have any trouble.
 
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Daetrin

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Not sure if you listened to the podcast but Paul takes pretty much this perspective - he argues that the uniqueness of the universe/races hasn't really been replicated since MoO2. He's a MoO fanboy, Rob isn't. Both of them don't seem to be big fans of really any space 4X games since then.

I think the same thing happened with Alpha Centauri. All the attempts to replicate it have been but pale shadows because the real meat of what made Alpha Centauri great was the setting and the writing - the 4X mechanics were pretty standard, with some innovation but not enough to solely explain why it's so beloved.
 
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Oscot

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I think the same thing happened with Alpha Centauri. All the attempts to replicate it have been but pale shadows because the real meat of what made Alpha Centauri great was the setting and the writing - the 4X mechanics were pretty standard, with some innovation but not enough to solely explain why it's so beloved.
The thing that annoys / worries me is that a substantial number of commentators these days seem to take the position that SMAC wasn't really that good and its fervent support comes from achieving a critical mass of nostalgia goggles + bandwaggoning, which leads to a positive feedback loop of rabid fanboyism.
I mean, on the surface that seems to me patently absurd, but then again that's exactly what I would say if I were indeed brain-infected with a critical mass of nostalgia goggles + bandwaggoning. :/
 
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Alexander Seil

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I think the problem are the rose-tinted glasses. People don't just want MoO2: The Space Empire Boardgame Ruleset in Machine Code, they want the feels of playing that game for the first time when they were 12, when everything it did was still fresh and innovative (though, in part, copypasted straight from their own MoM). The developers, being practical engineer types, don't seem to grasp that there is no way for them to recapture those feelings with a piece of software that replicates the functionality of MoO. You have to make something new that will feel equally fresh, today.

I mean, I admit that Civ 5 may be a good game. But I'm not going to play it; I remember the time when I was 9, and Civ 1 (never got 2) blew my mind because I didn't realize "this is a thing a computer can do." The modern Civ may well be superior to it in every way, but now I have points of reference like CK2 that kill any desire to get into the new Civ.

Will I understand this if I have never played any Masters of Orion?

You really should. There's a reason everyone has been copying those damn things for 20 years. Though, surprisingly, no many people, except the makers of Age of Wonders, have tried to copy Master of Magic, which was the real progenitor of MoO2 and the superior game. A game that shows how to properly succeed a classic is Dominions (1-4), which can be seen as a spiritual successor of MoM.

Not sure if you listened to the podcast but Paul takes pretty much this perspective - he argues that the uniqueness of the universe/races hasn't really been replicated since MoO2. He's a MoO fanboy, Rob isn't. Both of them don't seem to be big fans of really any 4X games since then.

I don't think there's much use in replicating anything in MoO. In retrospect, all the races and the "world building," for what it was worth, were pure cheese. You can't replicate it without making a parody.

I think the same thing happened with Alpha Centauri. All the attempts to replicate it have been but pale shadows because the real meat of what made Alpha Centauri great was the setting and the writing - the 4X mechanics were pretty standard, with some innovation but not enough to solely explain why it's so beloved.

Alpha Centauri is slightly different, because the only innovative thing about it was the fluff. It created an artificial atmosphere by practically forcing the fluff down your throat, but years later it's just way too transparent a re-skin of Civ.

The thing that annoys / worries me is that a substantial number of commentators these days seem to take the position that SMAC wasn't really that good and its fervent support comes from achieving a critical mass of nostalgia goggles + bandwaggoning, which leads to a positive feedback loop of rabid fanboyism.
I mean, on the surface that seems to me patently absurd, but then again that's exactly what I would say if I were indeed brain-infected with a critical mass of nostalgia goggles + bandwaggoning. :/

I dare you to go and try it, right now. It hasn't aged well - just usual 4X tedium dressed in pretentious technobabble. Master of Magic, on the other hand, is perfectly playable (and, arguably, has a better UI...).
 
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Daetrin

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The thing that annoys / worries me is that a substantial number of commentators these days seem to take the position that SMAC wasn't really that good and its fervent support comes from achieving a critical mass of nostalgia goggles + bandwaggoning, which leads to a positive feedback loop of rabid fanboyism.
I mean, on the surface that seems to me patently absurd, but then again that's exactly what I would say if I were indeed brain-infected with a critical mass of nostalgia goggles + bandwaggoning. :/

From a purely mechanical basis, SMAC isn't a standout. I mean, it's 4X mechanics with some elaboration on 'barbarians' and 'workers.' The unit customization was interesting but not required and often unwieldy, and crawlers were outright broken.

However, as an experience, it is amazing and always will be.

Alpha Centauri is slightly different, because the only innovative thing about it was the fluff. It created an artificial atmosphere by practically forcing the fluff down your throat, but years later it's just way too transparent a re-skin of Civ.

It's absolutely true it's a reskin of Civ, but to call the atmosphere artificial is, I think, to contend that 4X games should not have intrinsic lore.
 
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Oscot

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I dare you to go and try it, right now. It hasn't aged well - just usual 4X tedium dressed in pretentious technobabble.
OI U CHEEKY WANKER
TAKE THAT BACK OR I'LL SMACK YOU IN THE GOBBER I SWEAR ON ME MUM
 
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Alexander Seil

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From a purely mechanical basis, SMAC isn't a standout. I mean, it's 4X mechanics with some elaboration on 'barbarians' and 'workers.' The unit customization was interesting but not required and often unwieldy, and crawlers were outright broken.

However, as an experience, it is amazing and always will be.

What I find particularly puzzling is that, in my limited opinion (demo only for BE, and no full playthroughs of SMAC), BE is the much better game. The alignments and the units were all pretty cool, in contrast to SMAC's obviously tacked on unit designer where you could manually micro the upgrade from Laser 3 to Laser 4.

It's absolutely true it's a reskin of Civ, but to call the atmosphere artificial is, I think, to contend that 4X games should not have intrinsic lore.

They can have all the lore they want, provided they take care to integrate it into actual game mechanics. For an example of how to properly do it, I refer you to Dominions. It has has fluff for every single of thousands of units, and grounds every single thing you do with those units in the fluff. And it's well-written, educational fluff (the game is based on real mythologies).

Even better, you can have a whole engine that practically generates its own fluff, which is the path taken by Paradox, particularly with CK2.

I don't see the point of lore or chrome that has no influence on the game. It feels cheap, done only because "well, everyone else does it."
 
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apoc527

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This thread points out exactly what excites me about Stellaris and why I'm more excited about it than any other computer game since MOO3. Stellaris is different. It is not a MOO clone. Or a Civ-in-Space clone (though I do love you, GalCiv, you can't escape the simple reality that you are Civ-in-Space, even your name!).

Stellaris is, if anything, a CK2/EU4/HOI-in-Space clone. Now, I'm not sure that makes sense, since Stellaris is the first of its kind (a non-history-based PDX grand strategy title).

I honestly can't remember where it came from, but I'm still looking for that "Fifth X" -- eXperience. Maybe that was something the MOO3 designers kept saying. Stellaris--based on the Blorg streams alone--looks to have more of that Fifth X than any other game I've seen.
 
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Alexander Seil

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It's more closely related to MoO than one might think from the marketing, but it's MoO from a different angle. All the usual stuff is still there, broadly speaking, it just doesn't seem to play like a 4X. Those always stress me out, because of the feeling that not colonizing a planet or building a city every 10 turns means I'm falling more and more behind a cheating AI who's on an exponential growth curve. In a Paradox game, it's ok to turtle for a bit, build up and wait for opportunities, and it seems like Stellaris plays like that.
 
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Beric

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I dare you to go and try it, right now. It hasn't aged well - just usual 4X tedium dressed in pretentious technobabble. Master of Magic, on the other hand, is perfectly playable (and, arguably, has a better UI...).

Agreed on Alpha Centari. I didn't play it when it first came out, but I did get it off GoG and agree with the "usual 4X tedium dressed in pretentious technobabble" assessment. MoO2 did seem to have aged well when I played it - I was pleasantly surprised.

One game that I doubt many (if any) of you have heard of is the classic Mac-only 4X Spaceward Ho!. The game has extremely simple mechanics - even simpler than MoO - but it's very elegant in its simplicity. Avoiding a tons of complicated mechanics allows you to focus on overall strategy, and frankly I think its simplicity makes the game far better than much more complex games. It also has extremely competent AI and a comedy aesthetic. I've spent hundreds of hours on it. I understand that an iOS version is now available.
 

SgtSmuckers

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OI U CHEEKY WANKER
TAKE THAT BACK OR I'LL SMACK YOU IN THE GOBBER I SWEAR ON ME MUM

Lawd above! Don't be standin' on yaaahr muvver an' swear. That be no way ter treat da bird who gave yew life, innit.
 

Stormhound

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The worst thing that ever happened to 4X was Master of Orion.

It was a fun game, but soooooooo many games following it tried to copy it instead of innovating and making something new. It was the same situation that we faced with World War 2 games in the early 2000's and later with Call of Duty modern day military shooters; a single series or idea being copied and fleshed out indefinitely until the next paradigm followed.

Ultimately what the genre needed(needs) was to get out of the shadow of MoO and Civilization.

If the podcast doesn't mention this I'll be mad.

EDIT: Welp it did. Glad.

Right symptoms, but not so sure about your diagnosis. The problem wasn't MoO, it was the failure of those who came later to innovate. This is the same thing one sees everywhere else in the entertainment industry: anything that becomes greatly popular is immediately and incessantly copied to death, because everyone suddenly realizes that it's a concept that will sell. That's hardly the fault of the original concept (or the realization of it). Think of a movie or TV show that was remarkably innovative and new. Then think about how many other movies or TV shows have copied it.

Of course, the podcast also hits quite well on the problem that innovators have in dealing with an established fan base: fans tend to want more of the same thing that brought them to the game in the first place. I could name a 4X space game that tried to make some radical changes and force the player to deal with a more high-level view by limiting their ability to micromanage (and provide AI minions who would handle the job, but come with their own baggage). While that seems just the sort of thing the two gentlemen in the podcast were advocating for, I recall quite well how epic and thunderous the disapproval was from fans who deeply resented anything that would interfere with their ability to micromanage every single detail of their empire to absolute perfection. Guess who ended up winning that fight? (Hint: it wasn't the innovators.)

So while I enjoyed the podcast a good bit, and agreed with much that was said, I've been around gaming long enough to have acquired several closets full of that t-shirt, and I tend to buy such games now more in the somewhat forlorn hope that someone someday will surprise me and not foist another such piece of raiment upon me when I go there and do their version of that.

We shall see whether or not Stellaris is some magical synthesis of EU4/Vicki2/CK2 in space...or whether it manages to be even more.
 
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