What's the point of Surpise Attack?

[LogisticEarth]

Playing for the first time with the USA in a '36 GC, and I'm having a good time building up for war and researching and whatnot. I know Surprise Attack from Japan is coming up sometime, and since I like to roleplay a bit I put a nice fat fleet of battleships and such in Pearl Harbor. I wait, then in February of '41 (go figure) the event fires. But what are the effects? Just war and some policy slider changes. My fleet in Pearl Harbor is totally unscathed, and I haven't found any fleets in the area.

This dissapointed me greatly. Is this the way it always is? No REAL attack just some event? They should have just declared war outright, sheesh.

I should also note that Japan has conquored and puppetted Nationalist China, Siam, etc.

 

[unmerged(55919)]

It would be impossible to set up a Pearl Harbor event with a variable date and not knowing what, if any, US ships would be there to be attacked or what Japanese ships would be available. Paradox' solution was to give Japan a big surprise chance bonus for a month or so after going to war with the US.

 

[Valdez]

It would be impossible to set up a Pearl Harbor event with a variable date and not knowing what, if any, US ships would be there to be attacked or what Japanese ships would be available. Paradox' solution was to give Japan a big surprise chance bonus for a month or so after going to war with the US.

Well they could have said ships die instantly? and check if they do exsist or not. Doesn't matter where they are just happens. Also can have half harbor facility damages and 1/10 of the ships in the harbor if any die, as well as all planes. with airfield damages.

 

[Foxl]

Well they could have said ships die instantly? and check if they do exsist or not. Doesn't matter where they are just happens. Also can have half harbor facility damages and 1/10 of the ships in the harbor if any die, as well as all planes. with airfield damages.

Ok so any US player would never station ships there and if the player would know that ship "xyz" would be deleted when the event triggers. He just delete it 1936 just to save the supplies.
Imho the surprise bonus is good enough for Japan but there should be a fixed event similar to Danzig or War something like release the oil-embargo or war, because i've seen enough games where jap beats NatChi or is close to that ( not that this happens often ) and after that it doesn't do much. As long as they don't lose to NatChi they should DoW the US - just for some naval action

 

[Valdez]

Ok so any US player would never station ships there and if the player would know that ship "xyz" would be deleted when the event triggers. He just delete it 1936 just to save the supplies.
Imho the surprise bonus is good enough for Japan but there should be a fixed event similar to Danzig or War something like release the oil-embargo or war, because i've seen enough games where jap beats NatChi or is close to that ( not that this happens often ) and after that it doesn't do much. As long as they don't lose to NatChi they should DoW the US - just for some naval action

Two things wrong with that plan, one you'll still lose the ships making the point is that those ships are GONE, also they could easily make it so if those ships aren't there some of your BB's are destroyed and if you get rid of them, still makes their point, you lose your surface fleet.

 

[blue emu]

Of course, that could easily lead to the Japanese carrying out a surprise attack on Reykjavik, Iceland... or Monrovia, Liberia... by 1941, the USA almost always has military access in both places, and who knows which ships they will station there?

Wouldn't people complain about that, anyway... and call it unrealistic?

The accepted solution in-game is just to give the Japanese a +60% Surprise bonus for several weeks.

After all... HOI-2 and Doomsday concentrate on effects, not on mechanics. The in-game effect of the Japanese surprise bonus is that the USA will normally avoid combat until it wears off, thus giving the Japanese a free hand during their initial offensive moves.

That was precisely the intended point of the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor, in real life... so by abstracting the mechanic, Paradox gets the intended effect.

 

[Soulitaire]

That, Blue Emu, is very convincing.
That Blue Emu is very convincing.

 

[Foxl]

Two things wrong with that plan, one you'll still lose the ships making the point is that those ships are GONE, also they could easily make it so if those ships aren't there some of your BB's are destroyed and if you get rid of them, still makes their point, you lose your surface fleet.

Well losing the surface fleet is the wrong term here .. the US starts with what 10? BBs and doesn't even need one them. There a lot of posts that BBs are outdated, overpriced and nearly useless for their cost. And if there would be such event any history buff would say but the main targets for the attack weren't mainly the BBs but the carriers, fuel depots and naval facilities. So how to model this in an event?
And the loses for the US weren't that big if you look at the casualties ( looking gamewise and compared to the losses of the UK + Allies and Ger naval war):
sorry i'm taking these numbers from wiki as i didn't found a better site :S in a short time, so correct anything what is wrong

2,403 death + 1,178 wounded -> 4MP
18 ships were sunk, including 5 battleships -> ok 5 BBs deleted, i think the other 13ships were mainly destroyers ( one HoI2 flottilla are 6 or 7 ), so delete 2
188 American aircraft destroyed and 155 that were damaged -> 2 air wings deleted, another 2 at 25% health

the result of a historic pearl habour event would be:
+2 dissident ( civilian losses )
-4 MP ( military losses )
5BB, 2destroyer, 2air wings ( interceptor or fighter ) deleted
2 airwings @ 25% health
maybe navalbase and airbase damage ( - 5 )

all together the dissident would hurt most, but the war with Jap would begin the US player with better doctrines and a better fleet ( at least 10 carriers ) would crush the Jap in a matter of months ._.

 

[blue emu]

18 ships were sunk, including 5 battleships

AFAIK only one BB was permanently sunk... the Arizona... and one more so badly damaged that it wasn't worth repairing. Six of the eight were returned to service... in HOI-2 terms, they would have been heavily damaged, not sunk.

One of the ships sunk was the Utah... usually listed as a Battleship, but in fact a disarmed Target Ship. It was occupying the Saratoga's usual berth that day, and was covered with a thick layer of wooden planks (to protect it from practice shells in its role as a Target Ship)... from the air, it must have looked like a CV.

The Japanese also failed to do any signifigant damage to the Drydock facilities or Oil-Tank farm... all in all, the Pearl Harbor attack was a failure.

the result of a historic pearl habour event would be:
+2 dissident ( civilian losses )

I strongly disagree... the attack on Pearl Harbor united the American people like nothing else could have done... it ended Dissent, and brought all Americans (at least temporarily) into the same camp, united behind Rooseveldt.

 

[unmerged(26755)]

Indeed, if not for Pearl harbour the Americans may never have got off their backsides to help out in europe so IRL the Japanese did the free democratic world quite a big favour by the Pearl Harbour attack.

 

[Foxl]

AFAIK only one BB was permanently sunk... the Arizona... and one more so badly damaged that it wasn't worth repairing. Six of the eight were returned to service... in HOI-2 terms, they would have been heavily damaged, not sunk.

One of the ships sunk was the Utah... usually listed as a Battleship, but in fact a disarmed Target Ship. It was occupying the Saratoga's usual berth that day, and was covered with a thick layer of wooden planks (to protect it from practice shells in its role as a Target Ship)... from the air, it must have looked like a CV.

Twenty-one ships of the U.S. Pacific Fleet were sunk or damaged:
the battleships:
USS Arizona #(BB-39), USS California #(BB-44), USS Maryland (BB-46), USS Nevada (BB-36), USS Oklahoma #(BB-37), USS Pennsylvania (BB-38), USS Tennessee (BB-43) and USS West Virginia #(BB-48);
cruisers:
USS Helena (CL-50), USS Honolulu (CL-48) and USS Raleigh (CL-7);
the destroyers:
USS Cassin (DD-372), USS Downes (DD-375), USS Helm (DD-388) and USS Shaw (DD-373);
other:
seaplane tender USS Curtiss (AV-4);
target ship (ex-battleship) USS Utah #(AG-16);
repair ship USS Vestal (AR-4);
minelayer USS Oglala #(CM-4);
tug USS Sotoyomo (YT-9);

Ships marked with a number symbol (#) were sunk or destroyed during the Pearl Harbor attack.

But ! ^^
American technological skill raised and repaired all but three of the ships sunk or damaged at Pearl Harbor (the USS Arizona (BB-39) considered too badly damaged to be salvaged, the USS Oklahoma (BB-37) raised and considered too old to be worth repairing, and the obsolete USS Utah (AG-16) considered not worth the effort)

-> all the sunk ships should be deleted but come back after a time, when they were repaired for example the USS California was not completed until January 1944.

I strongly disagree... the attack on Pearl Harbor united the American people like nothing else could have done... it ended Dissent, and brought all Americans (at least temporarily) into the same camp, united behind Rooseveldt.

Well don't get me wrong i only wanted something to represent the civilian losses during the attack and the shock for the Day of Infamy and it was just an idea .

 

[blue emu]

American technological skill raised and repaired all but three of the ships sunk or damaged at Pearl Harbor (the USS Arizona (BB-39) considered too badly damaged to be salvaged, the USS Oklahoma (BB-37) raised and considered too old to be worth repairing, and the obsolete USS Utah (AG-16) considered not worth the effort)

USS Utah was not, in any case, a BB... it was a fleet auxiliary, a Target Ship. Curiously, it is usually listed as a BB in write-ups about Pearl Harbor... probably because it was originally built as a BB, many years before.

HOI-2 has no mechanism for "sunk but later raised"... so in HOI-2 terms, only two BBs were sunk during the attack on Pearl Harbor. The rest were heavily damaged.

Well don't get me wrong i only wanted something to represent the civilian losses during the attack and the shock for the Day of Infamy and it was just an idea .

My point was that Dissent does not represent Americans getting mad at the Japanese... it represents American dissatisfaction with their own political leadership. Pearl Harbor united the Americans, rather than dividing them.