What's the point of Imperial Fiefdom origin?

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Less2

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i would have loved to play a loyal vassal that helps to keep it all together for the overlord.
I too wish this was an option. It'd be an interesting change of pace.

At the same time, a stable Advanced AI empire with 4+ specialized vassals would probably be insanely overpowered. Vastly stronger than a normal Advanced AI.
 
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The thing that disappoints me most is I can't pick the species of my Imperial Fiefdom overlord? Seems weird considering Stellaris' wealth of customization options.

Yet for some reason on some origin paths, we can pick who our subservient species consists of, such as Necrophage and Syncretic Evolution, so why is that not an option with Imperial Fiefdom?
It would be interesting to at least pick the venerable trait for them and give yourself more time before their colapse
 
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The thing that disappoints me most is I can't pick the species of my Imperial Fiefdom overlord? Seems weird considering Stellaris' wealth of customization options.

Yet for some reason on some origin paths, we can pick who our subservient species consists of, such as Necrophage and Syncretic Evolution, so why is that not an option with Imperial Fiefdom?

The rule seems to be you can design secondary species, but not a second empire. The Federation/Hegemon start has the same limitation. Which seems fair, although I kinda wish we could at least nudge their ethics a little in the direction we want.

But on the original topic, yeah it's pretty disappointing that collapse is guaranteed. Sometimes we just want a nice friendly game where we're a good little pet and daddy gives us headpats, nothing wrong with that, othertimes we want to be sneaky and scheme, or belligerent and fight, our way out and there's nothing wrong with that either. But what's the point of doing any of those, if you know they're just going to roll over and die regardless of your actions within a couple decades?
 
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Arithmetician

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Well, I can say now from experience that on a medium galaxy, even if you take Propsectorium, which is the most punishing of the starts resource-wise, a Megacorp Imperial Fiefdom start is absurdly powerful.

I say Medium because on Large or above, a Peaceful Traders “League” Megacorp spawns in, who might compete with you.
Imperial Fiefdom Migration Ecumenopolis.png


Case in point... how I’m doing on Grand Admiral from a Prospectorium start, with 2x Logistic Growth, Ironman and achievements compatible.

(The ecumenopolis graphics are glitched, obviously. Hope that gets fixed... either that, or its related to my graphical settings).
 
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Arithmetician

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@Zoomy

Here’s an interesting point though, for those who wanted to help their Overlord: while you can’t stop them from falling apart, nothing stops you from Federating with them afterward... I think my Overlord was especially strong because of how much I was able to fund them during almost five decades as a Megacorp Propsectorium. So they reconquered much of their old empire (except for me and their next-strongest vassal, who remained independent), but we’re now all allies in a Trade League federation together, and jointly rule the southern part of the galaxy. So that’s fun and a way of continuing to help your old Overlord.
 

Stein14

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The new situation system would have been great here.

Help the heir consolidate power or stoke the fires of rebellion. And depending on what you do, the empire falls, stays the same or maybe even changes to a new state like "ambitious liege".
 
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There already videos out on Youtube about how Imperial Fiefdom is outright broken, e.g. infinite alloys from downgrading ships as a Scholarium, overlord paying silly amounts of resources for your special leaders (which you can easily mass-produce via unity, and the overlord will keep buying more and more leaders apparently), even research/migration agreement with the overlord are overpowered because of how many pops/techs they start with (and the research agreement is relatively easy to buy with favours, even if you have zero techs to teach the overlord). The devs will surely nerf/correct several aspects of this origin in a future balance patch. When they do, let's hope they also look at the setup of the collapse of the liege event, so that it doesn't become essentially guaranteed when the first ruler dies or shortly after.
 
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The reason it crumbles is because the mechanics do not have the depth to allow for a satisfactory 'escape' from your Overlord. They probably planned to have the Overlord have a chance at crumbling, but due to this expansion being rushed, were forced to make it crumble.
 
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It would be nice if there was more variety as to other outcomes for the Empire’s fate, or greater variability in when it collapses, especially so there was a chance of making use of our Tier 3 Specialization benefits more. As it is, you lose those benefits only a few years after you get them.

Interestingly though, in my game, before I decided to end it and wait for the hot fix, the Overlord actually reconquered most of their rival claimants to the throne (except the two I personally conquered before they could), and went on to conquer an even more expansive empire than before (with both myself and the Prince-Electorate as independent partners in a federation with them). So while it is currently set to crumble that doesn’t necessarily mean the end of the Overlord as a major galactic power.
 
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evilcat

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The whole scripted event idea is ok. You want to try out vassal play, have some fun, but when you have enought there is a collapse and you are free. It is story mode which is ok.

However, there should be an option to support rightful heir. So we have pick an option window, and one of option is remain loyal, which gives us better vassal deal but we are still vassal and have our stuff.

The mechanic: you may choose is good.
 
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Snow Crystal

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The new situation system would have been great here.

Help the heir consolidate power or stoke the fires of rebellion. And depending on what you do, the empire falls, stays the same or maybe even changes to a new state like "ambitious liege".

I am not saying you are wrong, because I can imagine situations (hah, see what I did there?) where that could be cool, but they came in quite late in development and I didn't want to start changing massively how the origin worked while we were in a polishing phase.

The reason it crumbles is because the mechanics do not have the depth to allow for a satisfactory 'escape' from your Overlord. They probably planned to have the Overlord have a chance at crumbling, but due to this expansion being rushed, were forced to make it crumble.

No. The expansion wasn't rushed, and it was never planned.

There already videos out on Youtube about how Imperial Fiefdom is outright broken, e.g. infinite alloys from downgrading ships as a Scholarium, overlord paying silly amounts of resources for your special leaders (which you can easily mass-produce via unity, and the overlord will keep buying more and more leaders apparently), even research/migration agreement with the overlord are overpowered because of how many pops/techs they start with (and the research agreement is relatively easy to buy with favours, even if you have zero techs to teach the overlord). The devs will surely nerf/correct several aspects of this origin in a future balance patch. When they do, let's hope they also look at the setup of the collapse of the liege event, so that it doesn't become essentially guaranteed when the first ruler dies or shortly after.

It would be nice if there was more variety as to other outcomes for the Empire’s fate, or greater variability in when it collapses, especially so there was a chance of making use of our Tier 3 Specialization benefits more. As it is, you lose those benefits only a few years after you get them.

Interestingly though, in my game, before I decided to end it and wait for the hot fix, the Overlord actually reconquered most of their rival claimants to the throne (except the two I personally conquered before they could), and went on to conquer an even more expansive empire than before (with both myself and the Prince-Electorate as independent partners in a federation with them). So while it is currently set to crumble that doesn’t necessarily mean the end of the Overlord as a major galactic power.

A massive change of the collapse event in a hotfix patch is unlikely. I wouldn't want to put in that much new content short-term, as I feel like we wouldn't have time to test it. But if people are interested in having more different outcomes (off the top of my head: golden ages, or maybe there's a succession crisis but then a strong leader rises to the top and becomes militaristic and starts fighting everyone Khan style, or maybe they turn pacifistic and releases all their vassals into a Federation instead), then it is something I could look at down the line. It's not something I am inherently opposed to doing.

@Zoomy

Here’s an interesting point though, for those who wanted to help their Overlord: while you can’t stop them from falling apart, nothing stops you from Federating with them afterward... I think my Overlord was especially strong because of how much I was able to fund them during almost five decades as a Megacorp Propsectorium. So they reconquered much of their old empire (except for me and their next-strongest vassal, who remained independent), but we’re now all allies in a Trade League federation together, and jointly rule the southern part of the galaxy. So that’s fun and a way of continuing to help your old Overlord.

What I will probably want to do short-term is to add an option to stay loyal even as the empire is crumbling, for those who want to hold onto the vassal bonuses and who doesn't have an interest in breaking free.
 
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What I will probably want to do short-term is to add an option to stay loyal even as the empire is crumbling, for those who want to hold onto the vassal bonuses and who doesn't have an interest in breaking free.

This would be a great compromise (though alternate events and situations would also be cool). Those wanting to stay playing as vassal can help reconquer the former overlord territories. I think a lot of players were thinking and excited that this origin would give a very different playstyle where you go to the endgame supporting someone else, and I still think that's a really fun prospect.
 
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What I will probably want to do short-term is to add an option to stay loyal even as the empire is crumbling, for those who want to hold onto the vassal bonuses and who doesn't have an interest in breaking free.
That would be ok, having the choice is best choice.

Other option (not separete): play with time to trigger. 50 years is early, i am not even done with my initial exploration, so it might feel as we havent even had enought of vassal play.
 
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@Snow Crystal

That’s completely reasonable! And down the line, if there’s a “Custodians” style revisiting of more content for this origin, I very much like the different sorts of ideas you threw out there (golden ages, strong khan-like leader, federations, etc.). But just adding the option to stay loyal (which you’ve said you’re open to), or making the MTTH of the Imperial Civil War breaking out after an unpopular successor ruler a bit longer and/or the timing itself a bit more variable, making things a bit less predictable, would go a long way to improving the origin!

Thanks for listening and being open to suggestions!
 
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That would be ok, having the choice is best choice.

Other option (not separete): play with time to trigger. 50 years is early, i am not even done with my initial exploration, so it might feel as we havent even had enought of vassal play.

+1 to this. My fanatic materialist technocracy struggled to unlock hyper relays and build enough of them to connect to the overlord's capital before they exploded. You really don't get a lot of time to have fun with the new mechanics, about a fifth of the runtime of a typical game (measured in in-game years, given late-game slowdown it's even less a proportion of actual play time).
 
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And to answer the thread, I can elaborate a little on what the idea for the origin was.
  • Start as a vassal, so we can put a spotlight on specialist mechanics. It's also a great way to be able to test specialist mechanics early for playtesting interally.
  • Be a part of a crumbling empire, sort of like late-HRE, together with other vassals.
  • Have a collapse from your overlord, where the vassals and pieces would start fighting each other for the legacy.
  • Be able to sweep up the remains and turn into an Overlord of the old area yourself, and get a particularly nice prize if you manage to beat the old capital of your overlord (which is a highly populated Gaia world).
It is one of two origins we had planned to put a spotlight specifically on vassalization mechanics (the other one ended up being cut for several reasons though, sadly). We wanted to try to do something else than just give you a vassal, or some such, as that would be quite easy, but also quite boring.
 
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I am not saying you are wrong, because I can imagine situations (hah, see what I did there?) where that could be cool, but they came in quite late in development and I didn't want to start changing massively how the origin worked while we were in a polishing phase.



No. The expansion wasn't rushed, and it was never planned.





A massive change of the collapse event in a hotfix patch is unlikely. I wouldn't want to put in that much new content short-term, as I feel like we wouldn't have time to test it. But if people are interested in having more different outcomes (off the top of my head: golden ages, or maybe there's a succession crisis but then a strong leader rises to the top and becomes militaristic and starts fighting everyone Khan style, or maybe they turn pacifistic and releases all their vassals into a Federation instead), then it is something I could look at down the line. It's not something I am inherently opposed to doing.



What I will probably want to do short-term is to add an option to stay loyal even as the empire is crumbling, for those who want to hold onto the vassal bonuses and who doesn't have an interest in breaking free.

Yeah, a choice to not break free would probably be the easiest short term change. As noted, you get to Level 3 and hold onto it for such a short time.

Those ideas for future changes/custodian modifications seem cool.
 

Arithmetician

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@Snow Crystal

And those are a lot of great ideas that went into the Origin. And I at least found it a fun yet powerful origin - while I didn’t claim the prize of the capital, it made for a wonderful federation partner and a great branch office location as a megacorp.

While you’re here on the thread, Prospectorium definitely seems to be the most challenging of the three specializations to start as, with how much it takes out of your economy early on, but it definitely remains viable as a Megacorp with Consumer Benefits.

In a bit of a digression, but one other thought on Prospectoria starts and mechanics, since you might be able to answer definitively this as a dev - is the number of times that new resources can be found in systems limited? I believe that it must be. In my Imperial Fiefdom game, my expansion got choked off, as I spent too much influence on branch offices too early, and badly underestimated just how much Influence my Overlord would get from influence tithes as well as their willingness to expand for a supposedly Indolent Overlord, and so I had only three systems for much of the game. I got some mineral discoveries as a Level 1 Propsectorium, and some mote discoveries as a Level 2 propsectorium. But as Level 3, I didn’t have any chance at all to discover rare strategics (such as Living Metal, Zro, or Dark Matter).

Now, it could be that I didn’t get much time as a Level 3 Propsectorium. But I hadn’t made any further Level 2 discoveries in many years before that, leading me to think there must be a per system limit.
 

Calvax

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And to answer the thread, I can elaborate a little on what the idea for the origin was.
  • Start as a vassal, so we can put a spotlight on specialist mechanics. It's also a great way to be able to test specialist mechanics early for playtesting interally.
  • Be a part of a crumbling empire, sort of like late-HRE, together with other vassals.
  • Have a collapse from your overlord, where the vassals and pieces would start fighting each other for the legacy.
  • Be able to sweep up the remains and turn into an Overlord of the old area yourself, and get a particularly nice prize if you manage to beat the old capital of your overlord (which is a highly populated Gaia world).
It is one of two origins we had planned to put a spotlight specifically on vassalization mechanics (the other one ended up being cut for several reasons though, sadly). We wanted to try to do something else than just give you a vassal, or some such, as that would be quite easy, but also quite boring.

These are fair ideas. However, I don't feel the current implementation realises them. At least not reliably.

  • You don't get to experience the specialist mechanics for very long, if you're lucky you'll be at tier 3 for a few years.
  • The collapse comes with little warning and it's something that happens to you. I didn't get the feeling that I was part of a crumbling empire, I was just a bystander.
  • In my game my overlord collapsed as I was building hyper relays to connect to their territory (so I could make use of the specialisation mechanics). As such I didn't have 100 influence when the event randomly popped, and I couldn't get the CBs to take part in the later war.
  • See the above point re the Gaia world. If you're engaging with the new mechanics and spending influence you then get locked out of anything but ordinary vassalisation wars. This means you have to tech up and wait until you can declare one against your former overlord, by which point they're too weak to specialise.

We can already try out the vassal mechanics as an overlord in any regular game. IMO the collapse isn't needed and really undercuts the origin. Particularly any challenge at escaping (which was emphasised in marketing, despite it being literally impossible not to break free). I hope this feedback is helpful in considering how to update the origin in the short and long term.
 
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