What's the fastest and most consistent method of conquering heathen land as a Catholic?

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Reman

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Is there a standard best-practice for expanding into heathen land as a Catholic? Expanding into Christian land is quite easy by marrying into weak claims and waiting for a regency. Doing this, in my current game Christianity has split into 3 blobs consisting of my own empire, the HRE, and the Byzantines. I'm not strong enough to take out the HRE yet and the Byzantines are out of diplo range, which has left me trying to expand into Muslim Spain and Norse Scandinavia. Without being able to consistently marry into top-level titles my expansion has been much slower. Here are the methods I've used so far:
  • Invite a heathen claimant by favor, land him, then press his claim.
    • Pros: You can freely revoke his title afterwards and nobody will care since he's a heathen. You can also revoke the land of any heathen vassals under him, essentially making this a free player-called crusade in terms of land rewards.
    • Cons: Very inconsistent. There are a silly number of stipulations to be able to use a favor to get a heathen into your court (not residing in a court of his close family member, no wife, and no council position eliminate 95% of claimants). Nearly the entire world becomes Agnatic Elective within a century or two, which doesn't give you a lot of claimants to work with. Then, if you succeed in getting a claimant you'll still need to push the current title holder into a regency (assuming you have a weak claimant). Waiting for regencies isn't horrendously difficult with assassination-by-dueling and plots pushing them into hiding, but it can take time to set up. If your claimant is an old geezer then you're rolling the dice on whether he'll survive for long enough.
  • Crusades
    • Pros: You can get an entire kingdom, the war is usually a cakewalk, and you can get bonus rewards from contributions.
    • Cons: Slow and inconsistent. At most, it can only happen once every 30 years. The player has no influence on whether the Pope chooses a big kingdom like Egypt or something irrelevant like a 2 duchy Bohemia. It's very possible you won't get the land for yourself, especially early on, requiring more work to get the land through traditional Christian marriage games. If the game files are any indication then eventually crusades will stop getting called altogether (many kingdoms have a weight of 0 for crusade calling).
  • Holy wars
    • Pros: Always available when neighboring heathens. Very useful in areas with lots of small pagans.
    • Cons: Very slow. You only get 1 duchy per truce, meaning it can take a century to take over good chunks of some of the larger Muslim blobs. The war also tends to be far more difficult than the previous 2 methods.
Have I overlooked something in one of my strats to make it faster or more consistent? I've been wondering about the possibility of abducting heathen children to somehow get them in my court for the first method, but I haven't had luck so far.

What methods have other people used? Are there other options I could add to my toolbelt, or are Christians doomed to be the slowest expanding religion in the game?
 

Leyrann

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I tend to just use Holy Wars. In particular if the land is shattered you can just perpetually go to war, and if the opponents are weak enough you can even get it done with only your retinues and maybe some mercenaries, meaning you can have your army ready when you declare war. If you aren't quite that strong, you can still declare two or three wars at the same time and then raise your levies.

Against non-shattered opponents I don't have a lot of experience.
 

Rags17

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Just spitballing here . . .

Land a Zealous character on your border and give him all the resources he needs to wage constant border war on the heathens.
Vassalize a Holy Order (rare I know).
Place your Chancellor on Ducal capital and hope he gets a Ducal claim.
Keep assassinating the target area until the magic of gavelkind has turned it into Swiss cheese, then wage one lightning Holy War after another.
 

Reman

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Because it has a good chance of giving you sympathy for pagans which is just useful and being a friend with a claimant obviously makes them much more likely to join your court.
I don't quite understand. Does the "Sympathy for <religion>" trait somehow allow you to circumvent the heathen acceptance penalty for joining foreign courts? I'm not aware of "Sympathy for <religion>" doing anything other than eliminating the relations penalty. My main issue isn't relations values, as I can usually get high enough relations to buy a favor. The main issue is that heathens have huge penalties to accepting invitations to court, making favors required in the first place.

On another note if you imprison an unlanded character you can recruit them which frees them and has them join your court
This could be useful. Do you know of consistent ways of capturing people? I'd be willing to go to war with a realm to capture someone if necessary, but taking prisoners that way seems very RNG.
 

jonjowett

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I'm not aware of "Sympathy for <religion>" doing anything other than eliminating the relations penalty.

I think that's correct.

My main issue isn't relations values, as I can usually get high enough relations to buy a favor. The main issue is that heathens have huge penalties to accepting invitations to court, making favors required in the first place.

For maximum exploityness, you can convert to the claimant's religion for the couple of weeks required to invite him to your court. I've never done this myself, but it seems theoretically possible.

This could be useful. Do you know of consistent ways of capturing people? I'd be willing to go to war with a realm to capture someone if necessary, but taking prisoners that way seems very RNG.

Culture-shift to Norse and go raiding? (Depending on your start date and location, other raid cultures like Berber or Altaic may be easier.)

The fastest way to culture-shift is to conquer a county with that culture, move your capital there and right-click on your portrait. Failing that, you can educate your heir with a different culture.

---

In addition to the suggestions from other posters, consider murdering the target king/emperor rather than waiting for the holy war truce to expire. If you're having trouble, you can always join the assassins. If you don't want to do that, you can try to seed their court with high-intrigue women via marriage. This has the added advantage of causing claimant faction rebellions - you can grab one duchy from each.
 

Reman

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For maximum exploityness, you can convert to the claimant's religion for the couple of weeks required to invite him to your court. I've never done this myself, but it seems theoretically possible.
This was the answer I was looking for. I tested it a bit, and secret faith shenanigans are ridiculously overpowered. By owning a Sunni holy site (or having a Sunni friend) I could secretly flip to Sunni, openly declare as Sunni, invite claimants, and flip back to catholic. I did all of this in a week, on a zealous character (nicknamed "the apostle" no less), to get a primary claimant, for a mere 250 piety. This changes EVERYTHING :D

Interestingly you can also use other religions' CBs with this trick.
 

Ixal

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With the new crusade mechanic you can change the target of the crusade. I just used it the other day to switch it from 1 dutchy in Italy to basically all of France. As added bonus, when you switch the target away the pope usually does not have a specific recipient in mind and instead the highest contributor gets it like with the old system and that should easily be doable if you move your troops there before it starts and seek out battles.
 

jonjowett

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Interestingly you can also use other religions' CBs with this trick.

This is especially exploity, btw - you can switch back immediately after declaring war. So, all you have to do to add a kingdom to your empire is: acquire 1250 piety, convert to muslim (costs 250 piety), declare war (muslim invasion, costs 1000 piety), convert back, win the war.

Honestly, I don't like these kind of religion-switching shenanigans. I guess I try to role-play my characters a bit - about as far as I'll go is to switch religion temporarily so I can apply to a society that won't kick me out after I switch back (eg. hermetics, warrior lodge).

(Aside: The above tactic is really not worthwhile if you're resurrecting a dead religion's warrior lodge (eg. Zunist). Yes, you become instant hero and leader with 1000 renown - but my legend bar is still only 50% full, 3 decades after starting the legendary gathering.)
 

Reman

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One suggestion not mentioned above: the "Great Conquest" CB. The prerequisites are harsh, but it's a fast way to take entire kingdoms from big blobs without claimant shenanigans.
It's a good CB but I doubt its reliability, since the enemy realm can be no more than 5% weaker. This means the war will be quite resource intensive, and it will stop applying altogether past the early to mid game.
 

jonjowett

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It's a good CB but I doubt its reliability, since the enemy realm can be no more than 5% weaker.

This is indeed the main problem. It's not well suited to world conquest.

However, I find excessive blobbing to be boring. Usually, I either start a new game at this point - or, sometimes, I give away my original empire and migrate elsewhere.

It can also be useful if your target empire is rapidly expanding. Sometimes, vassal wars can add several kingdoms per decade - especially reformed germanic empires, with their prepared invasion CB.

This means the war will be quite resource intensive

Surprisingly, it's not - the AI is unusually willing to capitulate. Blitzkrieg is the key - move mercenaries and retinues to the border before declaring war, and then siege down holdings as fast as possible.

For example: I just won a great conquest of Arabia. My size: 400ish holdings, 120k troops. Enemy size: 1200ish holdings, 140k troops. Blitzkrieg force: 12k retinues + 18k mercenaries. I received a surrender offer after fully occupying 4 counties in the duchy of Arabia - and without any battles.

The amount of occupation required before you receive a surrender offer feels similar to a normal holy war. And, now I'm thinking about it, that's probably a bug - although I'm not sure how I would check that.
 

Kumicho

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Honestly, I usually just Holy War them in to oblivion. Start by targeting the largest duchies, and then target the lands held personally by the Caliph. Since most troops come from the rulers demesne, targeting those lands specifically can lead to a *vastly* weakened ruler who is suddenly at risk of revolts. Then when the revolts occur, declare war on the rebels *but* also destroy the stacks of the Caliph as well so that he can't win the war. Start by assaulting holdings first, and only crush the rebels in battle when you've gotten more than 50 or 70% warscore. That way they'll be less likely to surrender to their liege before you have a chance to win the war.
 

Woifee

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If a landless claimant of a foreign religion likes you you can buy a favor and use it to invite him i to your court.

Land him and press his claim.

Can you raid? Raid capitals and kidnapp kids. Raise them in your faith and culture as grown up can ask prisoners with good relations to you join your court.
 

jonjowett

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Honestly, I usually just Holy War them in to oblivion. Start by targeting the largest duchies, and then target the lands held personally by the Caliph. Since most troops come from the rulers demesne, targeting those lands specifically can lead to a *vastly* weakened ruler who is suddenly at risk of revolts. Then when the revolts occur, declare war on the rebels *but* also destroy the stacks of the Caliph as well so that he can't win the war. Start by assaulting holdings first, and only crush the rebels in battle when you've gotten more than 50 or 70% warscore. That way they'll be less likely to surrender to their liege before you have a chance to win the war.

Faction revolts cannot make peace if an external enemy occupies any of their holdings. If you only want to prevent surrender, it's more efficient to siege down a few of their holdings asap. If you want to troll their overlord - siege down a few holdings and then start the troll!