What's the difference ? 2x tanks vs. SPG+TD

[Denkt]

The only punishment I can think of is that a slow unit will slow a division down but otherwise no it all depends on the situation.
Like using anti tank against infantry or artillery against tanks and such.

 

[Kovax]

By the way, having a division support unit assumed or actually required that simulates supply/logistics, communication, intell, military police, HQ, medical function (+/- engineers) is not a bad solution in division design as these certainly were universal in WWII armies.

These were universal in just about all WWII armies, but the proportional amount of them varied by quite a bit from country to country, or for different types of units. What I really keep asking is whether things like Recon are just a simplistic yes/no (in which case it's just "yes" for 90% of the armies out there), or if you can set the AMOUNT or SIZE of the recon element, in which case it becomes a valuable tool for designing a unit.

 

[GhengisKhan]

These were universal in just about all WWII armies, but the proportional amount of them varied by quite a bit from country to country, or for different types of units. What I really keep asking is whether things like Recon are just a simplistic yes/no (in which case it's just "yes" for 90% of the armies out there), or if you can set the AMOUNT or SIZE of the recon element, in which case it becomes a valuable tool for designing a unit.

Since there is not specific engineer or armored car units anymore you wouldn't be able to control amount and size of the recon/engineer attachments. It seems to be a simple yes/no now.

 

[Beagá]

TD's also have higher armor piercing than the same level of tank (roughly one level ahead) so will be an asset against armored opponents, while being cheaper and requiring less research as well as impacting less efficiency loss on production lines compared to going for a new tank line

They are much worse on the offense though compared to tanks so not a good breakthrough unit.

That´s nice but what defines if they will be paper and open topped like Marder, or a heavily armored (and sexy) beast like Jagdpanther? If I make TD from heavy chassis it will automatically have better armor? What about extremes like Nashorn and Elephant?

 

[GhengisKhan]

That´s nice but what defines if they will be paper and open topped like Marder, or a heavily armored (and sexy) beast like Jagdpanther? If I make TD from heavy chassis it will automatically have better armor? What about extremes like Nashorn and Elephant?

Those would be the TD version of the TIger 2 etc....you can also simulate them with the variant system.

 

[Zinegata]

I would agree and most WWII divisions had engineers as well. The question is for the game developers how they "punish" a player who decides to "save" some resources (equipment & personnel) by not having them in their divisions. All gamers sort of like to "cheat" to gain an advantage and in the 4 or 5 brigade HOI3 divisions most players didn't put in engineers so the question is how will the game developers deal with this in the HOI4 simulation. With 9+ sub units in a division you can now easily have an engineer battalion as one of them but again it will cost resources.

In real life having few support assets significantly degraded the combat capabilities of a Division. The Soviets, particularly in 1942, had to make do with Divisions that were without engineering, recon, and other assets because of shortages of trained specialists; resulting in their infantry becoming a mass of riflemen with capabilities closer to a First World War or even US Civil War unit than a World War 2 unit. Artillery in particular was a huge deal.

 

[Gamer_1745]

That´s nice but what defines if they will be paper and open topped like Marder, or a heavily armored (and sexy) beast like Jagdpanther? If I make TD from heavy chassis it will automatically have better armor? What about extremes like Nashorn and Elephant?

You bring some very good examples why something better is needed than what I understand is currently planed.

I am not sure how historical each model will be in HOI IV or will a Marder II just be a Pz II with better piercing. Also adding things like the 38t & Marder III (both types converted & production models). Once I get a look at just HOI IV handles this I plan on working on a Germany tank mod the as accurately as possible models (in a technical way) the German armored fighting vehicles. Either with the team from Vorwärts Panzers (we see things very similarly) or on my own if needed.

 

[phantomrider]

These were universal in just about all WWII armies, but the proportional amount of them varied by quite a bit from country to country, or for different types of units. What I really keep asking is whether things like Recon are just a simplistic yes/no (in which case it's just "yes" for 90% of the armies out there), or if you can set the AMOUNT or SIZE of the recon element, in which case it becomes a valuable tool for designing a unit.

Point well taken -- and it applies not only to support units but also proportional size of infantry with armor and infantry with artillery the major combat arms as well. These ratios changed based on experience during WWII to more effectively balance each other. Hopefully, the game designers have some concept of this and their combat simulations/resolution will somehow reflect this as well.

 

[TheLand]

Do we know how combat and movement "work" yet?

If it is a case of "everything shoots at everything" as in previous HOI games then there is less scope for individual battalions to have an impact on things. Broadly, what matters is the total attack number on each side, and you can add up lots of things in different ways to get to the same number.

A different combat model would give more differentiation. For instance, the role of a Tank Destroyer battalion in a division isn't just that it increases the number of AP weapons in the division. It also makes it more likely that those AP weapons will be in the right place in a fast-moving situation, and thus that the division will achieve a local concentration of force against the tanks threatening it. Equally, a division with 5 Tank Destroyer battalions isn't 5x as effective against an armoured division as a division with 1 TD battalion, because once two TD battalions are engaged against the enemy tanks there isn't space for any more, and you end up trying to do reconaissance and protect supply lines with the TDs, which they are rubbish at.

In a similar vein: not having an engineer battalion means bridging rivers and attacking obstacles is more difficult. Having a full brigade of combat engineers shouldn't much of a bonus to brridging or to attacking obstacles - unless you are attacking a city or fortification line where there is an obstacle to be demolished every twenty yards.

And Artillery for instance - removing infantry and adding artillery might add to the overall firepower of your division - but do it too much and you risk having too few rifle units to actually take ground. Each Artillery unit can act synergistically with an infantry unit, yes, but just adding them both up to get a "Soft Attack" number will give an odd result.

 

[phantomrider]

Do we know how combat and movement "work" yet?

If it is a case of "everything shoots at everything" as in previous HOI games then there is less scope for individual battalions to have an impact on things. Broadly, what matters is the total attack number on each side, and you can add up lots of things in different ways to get to the same number.

A different combat model would give more differentiation. For instance, the role of a Tank Destroyer battalion in a division isn't just that it increases the number of AP weapons in the division. It also makes it more likely that those AP weapons will be in the right place in a fast-moving situation, and thus that the division will achieve a local concentration of force against the tanks threatening it. Equally, a division with 5 Tank Destroyer battalions isn't 5x as effective against an armoured division as a division with 1 TD battalion, because once two TD battalions are engaged against the enemy tanks there isn't space for any more, and you end up trying to do reconaissance and protect supply lines with the TDs, which they are rubbish at.

In a similar vein: not having an engineer battalion means bridging rivers and attacking obstacles is more difficult. Having a full brigade of combat engineers shouldn't much of a bonus to brridging or to attacking obstacles - unless you are attacking a city or fortification line where there is an obstacle to be demolished every twenty yards.

And Artillery for instance - removing infantry and adding artillery might add to the overall firepower of your division - but do it too much and you risk having too few rifle units to actually take ground. Each Artillery unit can act synergistically with an infantry unit, yes, but just adding them both up to get a "Soft Attack" number will give an odd result.

Agree completely, I think most of my post(s) are really a request for the designers to tell us about how the current combat system works in HOI4 (assuming it is somewhere between alpha and beta testing). Then we can all agree, disagree and/or make suggestions on how to make it "better". It would also help in terms of how seriously we take "division" design in the game. Maybe a DD each on land (including air ground and sea land {naval bombardment}, air to air and sea {including air sea} combat.

 

[Porkman]

These were universal in just about all WWII armies, but the proportional amount of them varied by quite a bit from country to country, or for different types of units. What I really keep asking is whether things like Recon are just a simplistic yes/no (in which case it's just "yes" for 90% of the armies out there), or if you can set the AMOUNT or SIZE of the recon element, in which case it becomes a valuable tool for designing a unit.

There were lots of armies where these things were not a given... But yes the size is important. I think all of these being variable is what is going to separate the combat capabilities of the minors vs the majors.