What's the basis of Austria's mission on Venice?

[nalivayko]

Really? How about the War of the League of Cambrai and the War of the League of Cognac?

One could argue these were coalition wars (one first aimed at Venice, another at Habsburg empire of Charles V) and they were not driven by the mission to acquire a province of Venetia by the Archduchy of Austria, this mission being the main point of discussion here.

But yes, you are right, there were wars between HRE (read: Austria) and Venice.

 

[Umega]

In Quill's playthrough Austria somehow took Venice itself but the Republic somehow still exists. I don't know how they were able to take the capital without fully annexing...

Venice moved its capital to one of it's holdings (Dalmatia) in that video, which is really weird. How can you still call the nation Venice when it no longer owns it's namesake capital? Even from what I have seen in EU4 I still find it annoying to see nations migrating to other parts of the world and still calling itself by its original name.

 

[lucaluca]

Really? How about the War of the League of Cambrai and the War of the League of Cognac?

But those were coalition wars, not wars of conquest of Austria on Venice

 

[Assalander]

Venice moved its capital to one of it's holdings (Dalmatia) in that video, which is really weird. How can you still call the nation Venice when it no longer owns it's namesake capital? Even from what I have seen in EU4 I still find it annoying to see nations migrating to other parts of the world and still calling itself its original name.

So Venice decided to spend a crapton of Administrative points in order to move its capital, so that the rich province holding the city of Venice could be conquered by the Austrian... weird indeed.

Unless specific missions like taking Venice or Constantinople give you the ability to ask for the capital province in the peace deal?

 

[Heatth]

So Venice decided to spend a crapton of Administrative points in order to move its capital, so that the rich province holding the city of Venice could be conquered by the Austrian... weird indeed.

Unless specific missions like taking Venice or Constantinople give you the ability to ask for the capital province in the peace deal?

From Quill18's Europe timelapse video, it is clear the capital province can be conquered in certain situations. From what I've heard, this have been the case even in EU3.

 

[coldsteel]

Really? How about the War of the League of Cambrai and the War of the League of Cognac?

The War of the League of Cambrai was really a coalition put together by the Pope, rather than Austria getting a claim on Venice.

The War of the League of Cognac was the HRE (really Spain more than Austria) vs France, with Venice in France's coalition.

We're discussing a preview version, so hopefully things changed. But I think the OP has a good point. I don't see the justification for Austria wiping out Venice from the beginning via a starting mission against Venice. These are Tier 1 & 2 countries, so if that outcome happens consistently it should be tweaked so it doesn't.

 

[Assalander]

From Quill18's Europe timelapse video, it is clear the capital province can be conquered in certain situations. From what I've heard, this have been the case even in EU3.

When it's not connected to any of your other provinces maybe, no matter that it is coastal. Would explain what happened to both Venice in the LP and Constantinople in the timelapse.

 

[Calahir]

Austria has to blob like hell since PDS made her extremely powerful which is historically inappropriate. In most games we would like to see strong Habsburg Empire ruling the central Europe. The fact is that Habsburgs' power came from Bohemia, Hungary, The Netherlands and other lands they inherited or conquered. Not from those poor mountainous provinces of Austria. In the game we have poor Bohemia and Hungary in comparison to wealthy and vast Austria. Austria has more provinces than Bohemia which is silly as hell. But there is some logic in making Austria overpower and her neighbors underpowered - imperfection of the AI. It would have never made this empire if Austria and her neighbors had been featured rightly. To avoid determinism the devs transfered the power from Bohemia and Hungary to Austria by bumping the amount of her provinces and reducing it for her neighbors. And now we have BigWhiteBlob.It would be much better to encourage Austria to inherit Bohemia and Hungary instead of forcing her to conquer everything.

 

[unmerged(584823)]

Austria has to blob like hell since PDS made her extremely powerful which is historically inappropriate. In most games we would like to see strong Habsburg Empire ruling the central Europe. The fact is that Habsburgs' power came from Bohemia, Hungary, The Netherlands and other lands they inherited or conquered. Not from those poor mountainous provinces of Austria. In the game we have poor Bohemia and Hungary in comparison to wealthy and vast Austria. Austria has more provinces than Bohemia which is silly as hell. But there is some logic in making Austria overpower and her neighbors underpowered - imperfection of the AI. It would have never made this empire if Austria and her neighbors had been featured rightly. To avoid determinism the devs transfered the power from Bohemia and Hungary to Austria by bumping the amount of her provinces and reducing it for her neighbors. And now we have BigWhiteBlob.It would be much better to encourage Austria to inherit Bohemia and Hungary instead of forcing her to conquer everything.

I understand, but I always thought it was wrong (edit: I mean I agree with you). To me, it doesn't count if the name of the blob is Austria, Bohemia, or Hungary, Bavaria or the great country of Zgjkgzlgke. To me, what matters is that this blob is ruled by Habsburgs, and these Habs are supposed to aim for the HRE.
I wouldn't mind to see a great yellow blob named Bohemia in the center of Europe, if this Bohemia is ruled by Habsbourgs, who are trying to be HRE, it's fine !

 

[1alexey]

It`s really funny how people conveniently ignore that HRE was trying to establish controll over Nothren Italy for centuries before the game starts, no surprise, in that Austria as head of HRE would continue that, since Italy is Rich, and a big hub of trade at the game start. And it has Papacy, and having a powerbase in Northern Italy gives you huge power to influence the Pope.

In fact, the HRE itself is the creature of Germans intervening in Italian politics and pope rewarding it`s ally with Imperial title.

Austrian missions reflect that.

 

[unmerged(584823)]

Actually, since the Lombard League, it seems kind of obvious that the HRE gave up about Northern Italy.
I don't understand what point you are trying to make.

Plus, this mission is to conquer Venice, not to make it a member of the HRE.

 

[Marco Dandolo]

Well, Austria wanted to controll Italy, not to conquer it. That is a slight, but important difference. The only land ruled by the Habsburgs - until 1708 - was the Duchy of Milan, and even that was controlled by the Spanish line, which wasn't always so much attached to the Austrian line than many may think (the Reichsvikar/Imperial vicar of Italy was still Savoy, even when Felipe II insisted, that he should gain this title as a duke of Milan; Ferdinand denied). Austria thought much more in the terms of an HRE than as a land power. Mantua was gained because the Gonzaga died out (fief without holder). Milan was inherited/gained in the War of the Spanish Succession (like Naples, which later was lost). Tuscany was a recompensation for Stefan of Lotharingia, after the Medici died out.

Regarding Venice: clearly, the League of Cambrai was a huge blow. But the League of Cognac didn't see much engagement on the venetian side. The War of Gradisca in the 17th century had much more impact on the relation. On the other side, Venice was allied with Austria in 1495 against France, and in several Wars against the Ottomans (not only the famous one after the siege of Vienna, Austria did also support Venice indirectly in the long War of Candia). The relation between both nations were as ambivalent as the relation between Venice and the Ottomans. Aside from Riva, Rovereto, and some holdings on the coast of Friuli - all territories too tiny to show them on a map of EUIV - Austria didn't conquer anything in the north east of the peninsular. After the mid-17th century, Austria was much more interested in a naval power which could keep the Ottomans in check. After the middle of the 18th century, when Venice had lost its leading power in the Eastern Mediterranean, Austria didn't intervene either. It seems, that the role of Venice as a stabilizing, regional power was also in the interest of Austria.

 

[Closet Skeleton]

Actually, since the Lombard League, it seems kind of obvious that the HRE gave up about Northern Italy.
I don't understand what point you are trying to make.

I hear that a lot but it really seems like a gross oversimplification.

If the HRE really lost Italy under the Hohenstaufens and then became "the amazing misnamed Germany and its best pal Bohemia" from then on until its dissolution by Napoleon, why did the post Napoleonic pseudo-HRE of the Austrian Empire, the German Confederation and the Habsburg ruled small Italian states resemble the pre-Hohenstaufen HRE of Germany + Bohemia + North Italy so closely? Italy should have been out of the German Sphere for eight centuries but if you take that assumption and look at these two points then history seems to have magically rolled back.

The premier state of Renaissance Italy was the Grand Duchy of Tuscany. It was born out of the Guelph Republics that fought alongside the Lombard League and its monarchical titles were granted by the Pope. But the Habsburgs were angry about the Pope giving titles over it, still claimed it as a fife and later confirmed the Grand Duke's titles. Which one might say is just the Habsburgs keeping up appearances when really they have no power, but then how does the Grand Duchy end up being claimed as a reverted fife and handed off to Maria Teresa's husband? That's just impossible unless Tuscany is still in the Holy Roman Empire.

Milan became a duchy earlier in similar circumstances. It was made to encompass the major towns of the Lombard League but was granted its status as a monarchy by the Holy Roman Emperor. Again, if the Lombard League had really been so successful as to force the HRE out of Italy forever then the Emperor shouldn't be confirming its lands as a monarchy two and a bit centuries later. Like Tuscany would be centuries later, the duchy was claimed as a reverted fife by a Hapsburg monarch once its ruling dynasty died out.

Charles V then split his empire into a Spanish half and a Austrian half. The Spanish half kept a lot of territories in the Holy Roman Empire that would later be reclaimed by Austria in the War of the Spanish succession. These included the Italian possessions of Milan. In between Charles V's abdication and the War of Spanish Succession, Spain often acted as the overlord of all of Italy, with some small Italian states being treated as legally Spanish feudal vassals. It is my guess that they were probably doing so on behalf of their Austrian cousins who held the Imperial Title. Regardless Bourbon power in Spain leads to a split in Italy between areas of Spanish Bourbon and Habsburg influence that continues until the Risorgamento but definitely results in the Holy Roman Emperors regaining a dominance in Italy the Hohenstaufens could only dream of. The apparent absence of Imperial power there before then could very well just be the Austrians trusting their Spanish cousins to rule Italy on their behalf rather than the result of the Lombard League.

 

[JesterX21]

In Quill's playthrough Austria somehow took Venice itself but the Republic somehow still exists. I don't know how they were able to take the capital without fully annexing...

In EUIII if you surrounded the capital with provinces, you could demand it from them. Or if Venice was a minor-nation in the war, then you can demand it from the leader of the war, of course it costs alot of war score though.

 

[unmerged(584823)]

I've never said that Italy was out of the HRE, I simply said that Italian states and cities obtained particular rights who gave them a bit more of independance from the HRE (and yeah, that's a simplification, I didn't want to develop this part too much admitting it's not directly link to what we are talking about), but I've never said the HRE had no power on Italy, so please, don't say I said so. I didn't say the HRE gave up Italy, I said it gave up about Italy. Which means, to me, that they stop to try to influence northern Italy that much.

 

[Mad King James]

The real issue is Austria is ahistorically strong, even without the imperial crown Austria is absurdly strong in EU3.
Venice should be at least able to resist Austria, not be a walk-over.

Even when Austria is united with Bohemia and Hungary, most of their power is coming from Austria in ingame terms. It's silly.

 

[Zolotaya]

Austria's mission should be more focused on the Milianese and on the passes near Chur in Switzerland ... and they most definitely should struggle with France as the main protagonist in Italy north of Naples. Venice and Austria should basically ignore eachother, unless one or the other gets involved with a coalition messing with their greater interests. (ie. if Venice thinks it should start expanding in the north-west Italian provnces - or Austria tries to interfere in the trade of the eastern Mediterranean.

My hope is that France is much more historically biased in EUIV and actually gets entangled in northern Italy. EU3 France in my experience never touched Italian interests.

...Which means, to me, that they stop to try to influence northern Italy that much.

Your understanding is directly opposite of mine. I'll leave it here at this so the thread stays on point.

 

[Sabaron]

Shouldn't Venice be able to use its massive navy to keep Austria out of the city? I would hope the AI knows that.

 

[nalivayko]

Shouldn't Venice be able to use its massive navy to keep Austria out of the city? I would hope the AI knows that.

It should. We hope. It's not the point here.

 

[BobbyDylan]

Venice moved its capital to one of it's holdings (Dalmatia) in that video, which is really weird. How can you still call the nation Venice when it no longer owns it's namesake capital? .

You mean like the Easter Roman Empire? Or the Holy Roman Empire (Neither of which held Rome)?