What's an efficient way of protecting my convoys

[MiHan0205]

I'm playing TFH as Japan and I'm in the process of taking over the Vietnam area and Singapore area. I'm doing fine on land but my conovys are constantly sunk by French and UK navies around that area. I have two battleship groups and two heavy cruiser groups patrolling that area and two naval bomber groups flying around. Sometimes I see one of the naval bombers, one of my battleship groups and one of the UK navy group in the same node, overlapping each other, and then I get a notification saying they sunk one of my convoys, in that exact area. Am I doing something wrong or is that just bad luck.

Also is there a way to raise my impact of convoy quickly? Would it be viable to cancel all my trades to decrease the convoys exposed if I have enough resources from conquered land? Thanks in advance.

 

[Wraith11B]

You'll need destroyers, and maybe some light cruisers with high ASW capabilities (and the requisite techs researched). Cut them loose in small (a CVL, a CL and 3/4 Destroyer Groups are usually good balance; it also uses most of the CVLs that Japan starts with) task forces and have them patrol the region.

Conversely, you could avoid that and simply target their bases with Navs before conducting naval invasions against the ports themselves. Push them out of range and your losses should drop.

 

[Kovax]

Submarines are powerful and hard to catch until you've got a couple levels of ASW technology, which requires Radar. You also need a large group of escorts (DD is best at it, CL is marginal). CAGs also gain in ability over the course of the game, so putting a CVL and a handful of escorts into a fleet gives you the best chance of spotting and engaging the subs, and has the right tools to sink them once engaged. 3-4 DDs are barely sufficient, I prefer at least 5-6 to a group, which ups your spotting chances, and increases the odds of actually sinking the subs, rather than damaging them and having them slink back to port for repairs. As Wraith11B suggests, putting a CL or CA into the group gives them some staying power in case the opposition engages them, to buy time until your combat fleet arrives and turns the situation around.

Ultimately, the best way to protect your convoys is to grab the enemy's naval bases in the area. At some point, taking out that huge unsinkable aircraft carrier named "The British Isles" usually solves the problem.

 

[MiHan0205]

Thank you both for the replies. I do need some more ASW techs. And I guess I would start by taking over all those French and UK territories south of China. That way they wouldn't be able to sink my convoy right next to my Tokyo port, which is what annoys me the most..

 

[Wraith11B]

Don't forget to keep in mind how many ports there are... and how the AI handles all of them. It's really kind of ridiculous how the AI gets to use these level-1 ports in nowhere, Pacific Ocean.

 

[midget_roxx]

One thing that helped me was to manually control convoys and cancel the convoys going to those tiny useless islands. I was losing huge amounts of convoys trying to supply islands with noone on it.

As a side note, does anyone know if naval bombers have any deterrence to subs?

 

[Kovax]

Naval bombers can detect and attack subs, but the odds are really poor until you've got Advanced aircraft designs and several levels of radar for them.

Canceling un-needed convoys can help, but don't reduce your convoys too far. The amount of National Unity that you lose for having a convoy sunk is based on the percentage of your total active convoys, so if you've got 30 convoys out there, losing one is a lot less painful than losing one out of only 3 convoys. On the other hand, having 30 active convoys stockpiling supplies and fuel onto remote islands with no garrison (or with a 2xGAR brigade receiving enough supply for an Armored Corps) is a waste of resources.

 

[Palmerdale]

I'd agree with the port strategy. For Japan, that means taking out Borneo and Singapore. The Allied subs can easily poach around Japan from bases in that area. Even with a level 1 port, the game allows any number of ships to base there, it just slows the repair and upgrade rates. The AI seems to be pretty adept at using that particular quirk to its own advantage.

As far as directly protecting convoys, that is a very difficult proposition, but maybe not for the reason you might suspect. The entire convoy system is highly abstracted, while combat units are not. Subs, ships, planes and the like can interact with convoys and escorts, but all that action takes place behind the scenes. Direct control is pretty much impossible, you have to rely on the game mechanics and accept that a convoy simply danced its way through the entire Allied navy in one instance, and the next a solitary sub at the extremes of its range manages to blast a hoard of convoys, despite friendly guards/navies. Pushing the bases away is the only real direct control you can take to protect the shipping lanes.

I'd recommend keeping up with Escort building, too. I seem to have fewer of my own convoys lost when I maintain about a 1 escort per 5 convoys. If the AI control has the escorts, they seem to use them wisely. The convoy/escort/supply system seems too clunky to me, and involves far too much micromanagement for me to mess with it (usually). The trick to maintaining an escort cover is building them early and often. (Most countries have to ramp up production to get started on the early escort option). Most historical games start with far less than the 1:5 ratio I strive for; a custom start can be used to improve this imbalance, but is difficult to manage. You can easily accidentally cripple your game using the custom game improperly, so I'd recommend avoiding custom starts until you know what the game is doing.

 

[Kovax]

I generally avoid building escorts. Rather than sinking a convoy or two, the subs end up sinking a convoy and two escorts instead, and the escorts cost more than the convoys. It's not until/unless you've got several escorts on a supply run that the subs occasionally fail to penetrate the escort screen and turn away without sinking anything. If you only place one or two escorts, they'll just get sunk along with the convoy.

 

[Wraith11B]

Further, convoys/escorts never get cheaper as you produce more of them. Their bonuses only start really kicking in late in the war when the doctrines catch up too.

 

[Palmerdale]

Further, convoys/escorts never get cheaper as you produce more of them. Their bonuses only start really kicking in late in the war when the doctrines catch up too.

I always got the impression that the convoy/escort system was added to the game design late. Thus, it used a different system than the normal production.

That, and the 'morale penalty' for lost shipping seems a bit of an afterthought, too. If anything, that aspect seems to be far less important than it may have actually been. Rationing is a very bad word.

 

[Palmerdale]

I generally avoid building escorts. Rather than sinking a convoy or two, the subs end up sinking a convoy and two escorts instead, and the escorts cost more than the convoys. It's not until/unless you've got several escorts on a supply run that the subs occasionally fail to penetrate the escort screen and turn away without sinking anything. If you only place one or two escorts, they'll just get sunk along with the convoy.

Either tactic, exclusively building convoys or building escorts, is just a different method of gaming the game engine. Flood the convoy numbers so that the impact is minimal, or try to feed the game engine enough resources (escorts) to prevent the loss. Just a different mindset, I guess. I don't find either solution very satisfying. I'd rather build what I need, not what I need to build to prevent (or reduce the chances of) the engine from taking a 'bad action' against me. I'd really rather build to a more realistic 1:10 ratio.

The entire convoy/escort abstraction system seems a bit simplistic to me. But it keeps the focus on the direct military conflict.

 

[Pugmak]

Snarky answer:

Best way to protect convoys, and actually all naval issues answer, is to play as Germany and don't sell any resources over seas outside of the Baltic, take Denmark to close out the Baltic to the UK and make sure you keep the Russian fleet hammered flat.

Paratroop the snot out of the UK's ports, float your invasion force over and Bob's your uncle.

 

[Makje]

The best way to save convoys is to limit any convoys as others suggested. You can cancel all overseas trades and you can have resource convoys run for only a few days a month and cancel them the rest of that time.
The best way to defend convoys is 2 fold: defense and offense

Defense:
The best way to find subs is using air power and patrolling sea provinces. Especially CV and CVL but also NAV 'naval striking' a seaprovince, though NAV have far less time on station then CV/CVL. Also DD fleets with the best ASW techs you can afford. But the chance of finding subs depends largely on the number of sub-searching vessels and their sub-detections scores versus the number of subs in a seaprovince and their visibility ratings. So a fleet of 12 DD has 4 times better odds of finding a sub then a 3 DD fleet, but both fleets have a better chance when it is a 2 sub fleet. The exact composition of the sub hunting fleets doesn't really mater though, 1 fleet with 10 CV or 100 DD may have lousy combatstats but they will find subs pronto!

The best way to kill found subs however is a DD only fleet as CV and CVL can't really kill subs until 1941 and later and any DD or CL in the CV/CVL fleet will not close to engage the subs!

This means that the best realistic way to patrol a sea province you suspect has subs in it is to have 2 fleets in that province: a DD fleet of 6 - 12 DD and a CV/CVL fleet of several CAGs. The screens with the CV/CVL don't really matter, just get enough in to avoid any penalties and possible nasty suprises (especially versus enemy surface fleets). You can substitute the CV/CVL fleet for NAV as a lesser alternative. The CAGs/NAVs will find the subs and the DD will close in and gang up on them.

Offense:
Find any bases the subs hide in and port strike them to hell with your CAGs. This really is the best way to kill them as the naval bases are easy to find and easy to attack as say Japan or UK (though UK should make a few more CV and CAGs and use all of them to overwhelm German defending INTs). To be clear i mean don't waste valuable time patrolling an endless ocean looking for those 3 separate subs that sink convoys ways apart in the middle of nowhere. Instead use your CV fleets to aggressively attack subs in port. When you find a port with a sub you attack until it's dead. Bring in another CV fleet if you have to, it's worth the time and effort. Besides while you are there you may find their surface fleets and engage them too. If you don't like the odds retreat and come back later: you now know where they are repairing ships and subs so replenish and attack again.

If you can use land based airpower then that is even better to supplement your CAGS. NAV obviously, but i have also used Strategic bombers to bomb Wilhemhavens infrastructure mostly because that would draw out the German interceptors and the ensuing fight with my CAGs and STRATs combined meant having better success against the otherwise superior INTs. Oh yes go all out, it is war and those subs NEED to die.

In HOI3 any naval combat should be aimed at sinking ships. It is better to sink 2 ships then to damage 10 as ships repair easily enough, it' is building them that takes forever. That means that any engagement should be at your best strength with as much overwhelming force as you can at that time and place. Flee the province after sinking a few ships and sneak back to a friendly port if you have to, as long as you sink (a few of) their ships without losing (m)any of your own.
With subs they will disengage after a few hours of combat so get as many DD's (without too many combatpenalties) on them in that little time as you can to effectively kill them instead of damaging them only to see them slip away.

Last resort:
If you can't sink the subs then you have to drive them far away by taking their bases, but before you have taken over all those lvl 1 naval bases in the pacific and Australia and New Zealand while all of the Indies and Singapore and others are far more valuable targets... Subs have relatively good range too unfortunately.

 

[Kovax]

Good point about CV and CVL escorts not engaging the enemy. I normally put CLs in with CVs, for the added range and better firepower if needed, which is fine for spotting and air-striking subs because the planes are the main spotters, but I prefer large DD fleets to actually sink the subs. If you put both fleets on patrol in the same province, they'll very likely just go in different directions, so you might need to manually send them back and forth on Aggressive stance through the subs' usual patrol areas, It's not until about the 1941 or '42 tech levels that CAGs develop enough firepower to actually kill subs before they break contact, unless you stack 3 or more CVs in a fleet.

My fastest CVLs normally go into battle fleets with BBs to provide air cover for the BBs against any possible hostile carriers, the slower ones get used as sub spotters, and the true CVs get their own fleets to support the battle fleets without drawing off the BBs' escorts to protect the CVs. You do NOT want to mix BBs and CVs in the same fleet because the escorts will abandon the BBs to protect the more valuable carriers, while the BBs eat 100% of the incoming fire at poor evasion odds and sink. The less valuable CVLs don't cause a problem (unless the CVLs are slower than the BBs and hold back the entire fleet).

Note that if you play Germany, you'll need at least one level of Carrier Engine tech for your first CVL, otherwise it won't even keep up with the old WWI Baltic Fleet Battlecruisers. Bismarck and Tirpitz will require CVLs with a few more levels of engine tech to match their faster pace (playing GER, I always research the 1936 level of engine tech before building my first BB, which will still complete well before hostilities start if I build one or two BCs to boost my Capital Ship Practical value). The same engine tech principle applies for any country planning to build carriers: either put your first CVL in its own anti-submarine fleet, or hold off construction until you've got enough levels of Engine tech to keep pace with the ships it's intended to work with. All other carrier techs are secondary to that essential Engine tech. Building an initial CVL is usually a good idea for any country planning to build CVs, even if you have no use for an escort carrier, just to speed up research and production of future full CVs. The cost savings on the first CV can just about half-way pay for the CVL, and shave months off the completion date.

Be aware that ALL ships in a port will fire at any planes you sent to attack the port or ships in it, so don't port-strike someplace with 40 ships in the province if you value your CAGs or NAVs.