What would you want in a Germany Re-Rework
- Thread starter PurpulaPhoenixum53
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I would argue an BoP mechanic between Hitler and the Generals would be interesting, as they often clashed. Hitler had an better strategic look on the frontline while the generals had an better tactic understanding.
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I have somewhat similar idea about potential BoP between military side and political side. Posted it in suggestions:
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While Germany is one of the countries who could conceivably go Communist compared to everyone else in HOI4 flipping red a few months in, I don't think there will be a Communist path for the reasons it doesn't exist already; Germany is in the driver's seat of the scenario and needs to do certain things for anything like WW2 to occur. It's not impossible, but would need a whole new chain of events. The monarchist/democracy paths are there, but still lead to the same showdown with the Soviets.
I suppose they could just have UK, France, USSR, etc randomly flip ideology if Germany flips like how it works currently, but then it's just the random chaos of focus trees not designed to work together and you might as well turn on ahistorical mode.
I suppose they could just have UK, France, USSR, etc randomly flip ideology if Germany flips like how it works currently, but then it's just the random chaos of focus trees not designed to work together and you might as well turn on ahistorical mode.
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>extensive historical fascist path
>post war focuses
>light alt historical H-man choices
>a more in depth Berlin-Moscow axis branch
>alt historical paths for a few if not all of the following: Bormann, Speer, Goering, Goebbels
>extensive Himmler/SS takeover path
>extensive Wehrmacht takeover path
>SS-Wehrmacht balance of power
>Strasserist path
>communist path
>more reichskommissariats and the addition of reichsprotektorats and other special puppets
>map changes
>reworked autonomy system and puppet-master interactions
>post war focuses
>light alt historical H-man choices
>a more in depth Berlin-Moscow axis branch
>alt historical paths for a few if not all of the following: Bormann, Speer, Goering, Goebbels
>extensive Himmler/SS takeover path
>extensive Wehrmacht takeover path
>SS-Wehrmacht balance of power
>Strasserist path
>communist path
>more reichskommissariats and the addition of reichsprotektorats and other special puppets
>map changes
>reworked autonomy system and puppet-master interactions
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SS-Wehrmacht BoP still would not make any sense in historical context.
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What does not make much sense for Germany is a communist branch. 1936 when the communist party was completely dissolved and totally eradicated in German political life on that date, any alternative or dissidence to Hitler within the Nazi party was completely destroyed on the night of the long knives. These paths could only be viable if the game started in 1933.
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You're talking about the same game where White exiles can overthrow communist regime in Soviet Union, where Trotsky can lead Mexico, where Pope can restore Holy Roman Empire, where fake Anastasia can be crowned as queen and then bring down Russia...
Pandora's box has been opened for quite a while mate. I wouldn't even consider Germany becoming red a fantasy anymore, considering all the things that can happen in the game already.
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Bro if you can reform Rome in 1938 I think commie Germany is on the table here (not that I particularly care for it)
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As was seen in the Soviet rework, not all ideologies can be applied in each country. In certain countries these branches would be too implausible for the game to add them, such as a democratic branch for the USSR or a communist path for Germany or an alternative branch within the Nazi party. . But as he said if this occurred on another date like 1933 it could still be possible in some way
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A democratic USSR is not realistic, a Third Rome with a patriarch is realistic. Seriously this is so ridiculous.
Instead of giving this one of the most ridiculous and stupid alternatives, a poorly made paranoia system that does not reflect the real struggle of several groups but simply kills a random general/admiral/adviser, terrible Right and Left oppositions. I would prefer that the USSR be really well redesigned. Soviet-Czechoslovak relations. The starting troops and weapons that are missing are all the starting weapons, tanks and planes that were taken from the USSR, these are the airborne troops that are not at the start, the USSR is the first country that even began to create airborne forces, and when in 1936 other countries had only the rudiments of in the form of experimental groups, the USSR already had them as a branch of the military, can transport light tanks under an airplane and plans to mechanize them. There are no changes in the generals, no revision of their characteristics, no addition of new ones, for example, General Pavlov Dmitry Grigorievich - made a very large contribution to the creation of tank forces and the T-34 with a universal 76-mm cannon and the KV-1 as a replacement for the T-28 and T- 35 this is all Pavlov’s experience in the Spanish War, there are no airborne officers, for example Levashev Alexey Fedorovich, who served in airborne units since 1933.
Seriously, I insist that the USSR reworked again, this is one of the worst changes to the country that I have seen.
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Although it may seem implausible to some, that path of becoming the third Rome, through a theocratic state through the authority of an orthodox patriarch, is much more plausible for the USSR than a democratic path. Let us remember that the Orthodox religion was a very important unifying element for Russian nationalism (even today). Even though the Soviets imposed an atheist state, the Soviet leaders knew perfectly well that the Orthodox religion was a very important element of the daily life of Russians. the Russians and a unifying element that they could use in times of extreme need, as Stalin did at the most delicate moment of the German invasion of Russian territory.
Let us remember that the vast majority of Russian-Soviet society has been a very rural, traditional society, very little industrialized compared to what it shares with the majority of its counterparts in Western countries that have been able to develop a mainly urban population, much more enlightened. to develop a democratic culture very gradually from the middle of the 19th century
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The third Rome may be a puppet of the Germans or someone else. But as an independent phenomenon this is has no real basis. Stalin was forced to cooperate with the church mostly as counter-propaganda. Because the Germans in the occupied territories were pursuing their goal of returning religion - so that the church would tell people to cooperate with the Germans, and one more element is their further policy of exterminating people in the occupied territories. And those people who were supposed to serve the Germans in the former Soviet territories had to be extremely uneducated (maximum a couple of school years) and extremely superstitious and religious.
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Let us remember that the concept of the third Rome was an ancient concept in Russia and was used by the tsars through the ultra-orthodox religion through the particardias, having quite an influence on the Russian people. Something even the Soviet leaders see as a latent and quite dangerous threat to the legitimacy of the Soviet regime, especially if it were used by foreign powers.
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Diplomatic confict between Germany and Japan about the german colonys in the pacific. I have read a article that the that it was difficult to come to an agreement and each end thought he could rip the other off later. So both get cores there and wartarget.
SS and Wehrmachtstrait with different bonus. SS = brerakthrough. Wehrmacht = orga.
Bonus for the achse. The only they get one temporary is Italy.
I am not shure. The last time i have watch the german have lost. The allys have cheat...
SS and Wehrmachtstrait with different bonus. SS = brerakthrough. Wehrmacht = orga.
Bonus for the achse. The only they get one temporary is Italy.
I am not shure. The last time i have watch the german have lost. The allys have cheat...
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A revamped focus tree compared to the size of the Soviet Union.
New balance of power mechanic.
New unit type.
New general and admiral.
New balance of power mechanic.
New unit type.
New general and admiral.
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Besides incorporating new features, it would be a wise idea to consider what are Germany's problems and strengths in reality.
How Germany looks in the game right now:
A) Germany is designed to have a production advantage in 1939-1940 over all European powers, and partly over USA in that period.
B) It is badly resource constrained. Especially when it comes to oil and rubber, when the war starts.
C) The main advantages it has in the game, come from tech, special advisors and generals. Tech lesser nowadays, because its focus tree was optimized for pre-NSB and now tank bonuses and air bonuses given are not very useful
D) Germany is the game driver. AKA, if Germany goes democratic (peaceful/defensive) there is no game for the rest of the world (as everyone usually gangbangs it or gets steamrolled by it)
What people seem to want:
A) A communist path(s)
B) A non-aligned path(s)
C) Balance of powers mechanics
D) Wunderwaffen
How would I go about it:
I) Alternative Political paths:
A) Goering & his Luftwaffe. Goering was extremely powerful, and known as Hitler's successor until he was removed from that position in 1945. His Luftwaffe controlled most Anti-Air units (including those acting as frontline support), the paratroopers, a special tank division and Luftwaffe field divisions (basically land divisions under Luftwaffe authority temporarily assigned to the frontline).
B) If anyone watches the "Babylon: Berlin" German tv show, there is a character there named Walther Stennes. He was a National Socialist opposed to Hitler (opposed him as a leader of the Berlin SA, removed by Ernst Rohm who took over the SA and later got killed by Hitler), expelled in 1931 and acting as an advisor to the Kuomingtang ever since. He tried to revive National Socialist postwar in Germany but that didn't exactly play out.
He could serve as an alternative fascist path.
C) SS: well we know these guys. SS was originally Hitler's bodyguard, but later became an armed force of its own.
D) Navy & Abwehr(intelligence): Erich Raeder was a staunch monarchist, and crazy conservative (went as kicking out a few of his subordinates for "marrying wrong girls" including Hitler's personal naval assistant Raeder approved earlier, as well as banning short-skirts for naval officer wives). Given the navy was the Kaiser's personal toy, he pretty much prepared it as a nucleus of restoration when the time comes (which never did). The intelligence since Weimar was occupied by naval officers (because army officers didn't do a good job at one point).
E) New Wehrmacht. If we look there was a sizeable crew of Hitler's personal appointees in the Wehrmacht like Rommel, Guderian, Model and others. A lot of them betrayed him later, but the places they took were originally held by General Staff officers, many from the Reichswehr.
F) Old Reichswehr. These are generals that didn't really play out as much as they could have in WW2, because they were removed to give way to Hitler's favorites. Mostly monarchist from my understanding.
G) Communist path. I would even argue it should be a branch of Hitler's path, because if you think about it, National Socialism is pretty similar in a lot of ways to communism. Supremacy of the state in all areas of life, contempt for ownership rights, hatred towards capitalism, calls for revolution.
Instead of international communism though, I would argue it would be more "National Communism/Marxism": Marx was a German nationalist historically and his whole theory was mostly adapted to the Germanic societal environment. Based on what I know, it is even argued that National Socialism is the closest thing there is to "True marxism" while the Soviet and Chinese versions are wild fanfiction.
Otto Strasser could be a good example.
At the same time, Communist Germany should generally be prevented from allying to the USSR, and forced to start reuniting German-settled lands. At least unless the US joins the allies (when it would become an equal match).
II) Balance of powers: the problem is Hitler's Germany has too many moving parts. The Luftwaffe vs Navy, Army vs SS, SS vs Luftwaffe. Army vs SS is probably the strongest example.
III) Wunderwaffen. Honestly, Germany's biggest wonder weapons are not those you could think of. Their finest wunderwaffen was the BF-109, which was fantastically cheap compared to its counterparts thanks to its design.
Rocket aircraft, supertanks, rockets and other stuff look cool, but were not that effective in reality (like Nuclear weapons) and can become a balance issue without extensive research (which Paradox kind of fails at recently).
IV) The big issue in the game: is how to make the game more balanced for Germany when facing the allies.
Currently, Germany has little chance of withstanding the USA paired with UK. I kind of feel the US is vastly overpowered in the game, especially if it's allowed to join the wars early.
I would argue, there has to be a severe revision of battalion stats, because otherwise the game is predecided from the start: whoever has a little more resources wins, with no consideration of player decisions.
There is no way defensive war is a viable strategy, which kind of undervalues the fact that Germany repeatedly stopped offensives: in Italy, in the Netherlands, on the French-German border against the allies, in Western and Southern USSR in 1942-1944.
The problem is how to balance the need to allow Germany to achieve its 1939-1940 Blitz over Europe with its 1943-1944 defense. I would argue it should be done by giving options only a human player could use, while AI would be discouraged from to allow historic outcomes.
How Germany looks in the game right now:
A) Germany is designed to have a production advantage in 1939-1940 over all European powers, and partly over USA in that period.
B) It is badly resource constrained. Especially when it comes to oil and rubber, when the war starts.
C) The main advantages it has in the game, come from tech, special advisors and generals. Tech lesser nowadays, because its focus tree was optimized for pre-NSB and now tank bonuses and air bonuses given are not very useful
D) Germany is the game driver. AKA, if Germany goes democratic (peaceful/defensive) there is no game for the rest of the world (as everyone usually gangbangs it or gets steamrolled by it)
What people seem to want:
A) A communist path(s)
B) A non-aligned path(s)
C) Balance of powers mechanics
D) Wunderwaffen
How would I go about it:
I) Alternative Political paths:
A) Goering & his Luftwaffe. Goering was extremely powerful, and known as Hitler's successor until he was removed from that position in 1945. His Luftwaffe controlled most Anti-Air units (including those acting as frontline support), the paratroopers, a special tank division and Luftwaffe field divisions (basically land divisions under Luftwaffe authority temporarily assigned to the frontline).
B) If anyone watches the "Babylon: Berlin" German tv show, there is a character there named Walther Stennes. He was a National Socialist opposed to Hitler (opposed him as a leader of the Berlin SA, removed by Ernst Rohm who took over the SA and later got killed by Hitler), expelled in 1931 and acting as an advisor to the Kuomingtang ever since. He tried to revive National Socialist postwar in Germany but that didn't exactly play out.
He could serve as an alternative fascist path.
C) SS: well we know these guys. SS was originally Hitler's bodyguard, but later became an armed force of its own.
D) Navy & Abwehr(intelligence): Erich Raeder was a staunch monarchist, and crazy conservative (went as kicking out a few of his subordinates for "marrying wrong girls" including Hitler's personal naval assistant Raeder approved earlier, as well as banning short-skirts for naval officer wives). Given the navy was the Kaiser's personal toy, he pretty much prepared it as a nucleus of restoration when the time comes (which never did). The intelligence since Weimar was occupied by naval officers (because army officers didn't do a good job at one point).
E) New Wehrmacht. If we look there was a sizeable crew of Hitler's personal appointees in the Wehrmacht like Rommel, Guderian, Model and others. A lot of them betrayed him later, but the places they took were originally held by General Staff officers, many from the Reichswehr.
F) Old Reichswehr. These are generals that didn't really play out as much as they could have in WW2, because they were removed to give way to Hitler's favorites. Mostly monarchist from my understanding.
G) Communist path. I would even argue it should be a branch of Hitler's path, because if you think about it, National Socialism is pretty similar in a lot of ways to communism. Supremacy of the state in all areas of life, contempt for ownership rights, hatred towards capitalism, calls for revolution.
Instead of international communism though, I would argue it would be more "National Communism/Marxism": Marx was a German nationalist historically and his whole theory was mostly adapted to the Germanic societal environment. Based on what I know, it is even argued that National Socialism is the closest thing there is to "True marxism" while the Soviet and Chinese versions are wild fanfiction.
Otto Strasser could be a good example.
At the same time, Communist Germany should generally be prevented from allying to the USSR, and forced to start reuniting German-settled lands. At least unless the US joins the allies (when it would become an equal match).
II) Balance of powers: the problem is Hitler's Germany has too many moving parts. The Luftwaffe vs Navy, Army vs SS, SS vs Luftwaffe. Army vs SS is probably the strongest example.
III) Wunderwaffen. Honestly, Germany's biggest wonder weapons are not those you could think of. Their finest wunderwaffen was the BF-109, which was fantastically cheap compared to its counterparts thanks to its design.
Rocket aircraft, supertanks, rockets and other stuff look cool, but were not that effective in reality (like Nuclear weapons) and can become a balance issue without extensive research (which Paradox kind of fails at recently).
IV) The big issue in the game: is how to make the game more balanced for Germany when facing the allies.
Currently, Germany has little chance of withstanding the USA paired with UK. I kind of feel the US is vastly overpowered in the game, especially if it's allowed to join the wars early.
I would argue, there has to be a severe revision of battalion stats, because otherwise the game is predecided from the start: whoever has a little more resources wins, with no consideration of player decisions.
There is no way defensive war is a viable strategy, which kind of undervalues the fact that Germany repeatedly stopped offensives: in Italy, in the Netherlands, on the French-German border against the allies, in Western and Southern USSR in 1942-1944.
The problem is how to balance the need to allow Germany to achieve its 1939-1940 Blitz over Europe with its 1943-1944 defense. I would argue it should be done by giving options only a human player could use, while AI would be discouraged from to allow historic outcomes.
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Personally I'd like to see Germany do more mid-late war
-focuses/events around if things go badly in the war, such as recruiting the volkstrum, maybe focuses to set up AA towers or adapt factories to bombing
-national decisions around a bitter peace/soviet partition scenario, where Germany conquers up to the Volga or Urals without taking the whole soviet union, would probably require holding certain amounts of land and having soviets below a certain war score. ( don't think this should be easy to do)
-I think perhaps along the same lines there could be the possibility sort of favorable truce with the brits if a successful Barbarossa happens and America hasn't joined
-I think if there is another alt history path, some sort of 'Wehrmacht coup' path would make the most sense, seeing as assassination was considered and even attempted by various officers. I imagine it would have military and perhaps diplomatic bonuses, but lock out alot of the Nazi leadership.
I think an expansion of the Reichkommissariats/occupation governments and some sort of mechanic to prevent the Germans from taking the entire commonwealth if they knock out Britain would be a great fit great as well.
-focuses/events around if things go badly in the war, such as recruiting the volkstrum, maybe focuses to set up AA towers or adapt factories to bombing
-national decisions around a bitter peace/soviet partition scenario, where Germany conquers up to the Volga or Urals without taking the whole soviet union, would probably require holding certain amounts of land and having soviets below a certain war score. ( don't think this should be easy to do)
-I think perhaps along the same lines there could be the possibility sort of favorable truce with the brits if a successful Barbarossa happens and America hasn't joined
-I think if there is another alt history path, some sort of 'Wehrmacht coup' path would make the most sense, seeing as assassination was considered and even attempted by various officers. I imagine it would have military and perhaps diplomatic bonuses, but lock out alot of the Nazi leadership.
I think an expansion of the Reichkommissariats/occupation governments and some sort of mechanic to prevent the Germans from taking the entire commonwealth if they knock out Britain would be a great fit great as well.
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If Germany gets a rework, I want Austria and Czechoslovakia to be updated alongside it. Czechoslovakia has one of the worst focus trees in the game as it was from one of the earlier DLC’s that didn’t get updated, and Austria… lacks a focus tree altogether. This would be the perfect opportunity for that.
Other than that, I really want to see Germany actually have releasables. The only releasables Germany has are Kashubia and Silesia… but there are more, except you have to play as France of all nations and give them their cores, which feels wrong. Italy has it’s pre-Victorian states have cores at game start so why not Germany? At least Bavaria, to be honest.
I’d also kill for Germany to have a state for the Saarland and the chance for the Allied Powers to take it away after Yalta into it’s own thing again.
For the focus tree itself, I really want to see all three current ones (monarchist, democratic, and fascist) receive more options, like alternative fascist leaders or other democratic governments but most of all, a revitalization of the current three trees should take priority above all, since those do look a bit off in their sorry state. Give them more options, more stuff to do, so that they too feel gratifying as playing say, the Soviets.
I also hope that Germany isn’t the next thing. I’d prefer if the Middle East and South East Asia are done first, and THEN full scale reworks hit Germany (and also Japan), since getting nations that were in the war but have been ignored would be great, and besides, they could get more things via war efforts, which could be small ways building up to a greater rework as they do other things.
Other than that, I really want to see Germany actually have releasables. The only releasables Germany has are Kashubia and Silesia… but there are more, except you have to play as France of all nations and give them their cores, which feels wrong. Italy has it’s pre-Victorian states have cores at game start so why not Germany? At least Bavaria, to be honest.
I’d also kill for Germany to have a state for the Saarland and the chance for the Allied Powers to take it away after Yalta into it’s own thing again.
For the focus tree itself, I really want to see all three current ones (monarchist, democratic, and fascist) receive more options, like alternative fascist leaders or other democratic governments but most of all, a revitalization of the current three trees should take priority above all, since those do look a bit off in their sorry state. Give them more options, more stuff to do, so that they too feel gratifying as playing say, the Soviets.
I also hope that Germany isn’t the next thing. I’d prefer if the Middle East and South East Asia are done first, and THEN full scale reworks hit Germany (and also Japan), since getting nations that were in the war but have been ignored would be great, and besides, they could get more things via war efforts, which could be small ways building up to a greater rework as they do other things.
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