What would you like to see in Sengoku?

[StephenT]

There's been a lot of negative comment so far, so this is a thread for us to be positive and helpful. At least, that's the plan...

What features would you like the new game to include? What aspects of Japanese history from this period would you like Paradox to show? Especially things that other games set in mediaeval Japan (such as S:TW) haven't represented too well.

Here's my own list: let's see what else we can come up with.

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1. In 1467 there were about 260 daimyo families in Japan. I'd like the game to include every one of them, accurately named, ruling their historical provinces. (There are 350 provinces in the game, so basically you'd have one daimyo per province with a few left over.)

2. Instead of EUIII-style taking over provinces wholesale, a system more like CK's demesne. Powerful factions can only control a small number of provinces directly; for others, they have to ally the daimyo of that province. A loyal vassal will give money and let you use his army. A rebellious one will act on his own behalf, or even backstab you and join another faction or go independent.

3. Hostage taking. Insisting your vassals come and pay their respects to you in your capital, at their own expense. Ordering them to commit seppuku. Being ordered to commit seppuku yourself if you're defeated (with massive penalties if you refuse, similar to being excommunicated in CK).

4. Yamabushi! Some Buddhist monasteries had their own armies of warrior-monks and were as powerful as daimyo themselves. The Ikko sect of monks ruled half a dozen provinces for a century.

5. The monks of Hiei-san used to carry their portable shrines into Kyoto, set them down in front of their enemies' palaces, and demand money or privileges to leave again (and removing them by force would be blasphemy, not to mention that the monks were numerous and heavily-armed). This has to be an event...

6. Being granted titles by the Emperor as a source of prestige, if you have access to Kyoto and he'll agree to see you. And if you're of suitably noble blood, otherwise you might have to make do with being appointed Junior Councillor of the Fourth Rank, and have to act like it's an honour.

7. Buying batches of muskets from the Europeans, if you own a port. Setting up workshops to make muskets in your own lands to equip your troops. Your vassals rebelling because muskets are dishonourable peasants' weapons.

8. Powerful factions trying to force their vassals to stop making muskets - maybe as a peace condition after a war.

9. Letting Christian missionaries into your lands in return for trade benefits from the Europeans. Realising this is a bad idea when your newly Christian subjects rebel against you.

10. Being excited when you finally meet new types of Europeans (the Dutch and English ones) who don't insist on sending missionaries but will trade with you anyway.

11. Trading with China via Ryukyu, because the Chinese refused to trade directly with Japan. That meant that the Japanese had to pretend that they didn't actually control Ryukyu; they couldn't station troops there, for example. That would be an interesting game mechanic...

12. Sponsoring pirate expeditions to go out and raid all over East Asia - China, Malaya, the Philippines, Siam - and come back with loot.

13. Building elaborate castles. Building temples. Conducting land surveys to improve the tax base. Improving the roads. Constructing mines. Sponsoring commercial shipbuilding.

14...?

 

[TAoD]

What features would you like the new game to include? What aspects of Japanese history from this period would you like Paradox to show? Especially things that other games set in mediaeval Japan (such as S:TW) haven't represented too well.

Thats going to be the hugest problem with this thread right there.
The question should be more like what cannot be shown in the game.
Shogun TW has almost all of these things listed, as well in the Second one.
I wouldnt put down the total war game, but instead open up asking what can simply be done with just this game.

And like I said before, what cant be done? From every Japan game Ive ever played, I have not seen one where you can invade Korea.

 

[StephenT]

Shogun TW has almost all of these things listed

The version of the game I played certainly didn't; at least not in anything but an extremely simplified form. But let's not get sidetracked.

Invading Korea would be interesting, but I wouldn't want them to spend a long time on setting up all the Korean provinces and noble factions instead of concentrating on getting Japan right; that would be a separate game in itself. Unless it was done as a more abstracted system.

 

[monsterfurby]

A "create your own officer" option in-game, without the need to mod the game files. Just enter their name, decide their stats, tell the game who they serve in the beginning and choose a predefined mon.
Alright, I lifted that straight out of the Koei games, but it would be a nice touch and definitely something different.
And is probably not going to happen.

Apart from that, I would like the ability to "bookmark" individual characters and follow their path through history, and maybe the ability to back another lord's courtiers in their claims against their daimyo/hatamoto and stir up unrest between them.

 

[Sakura]

1. In 1467 there were about 260 daimyo families in Japan. I'd like the game to include every one of them, accurately named, ruling their historical provinces. (There are 350 provinces in the game, so basically you'd have one daimyo per province with a few left over.)

There may have been 260 significant samurai families in 1467, but most of them weren't daimyo

 

[monsterfurby]

When Tokugawa reorganized the nation around 1600, there were around 200 domains. Assuming that some of the daimyo were purged in the aftermath of the civil war, I would assume that 260 seems a realistic number.

 

[StephenT]

I took the number from Japan: A Short Cultural History by G B Sansom:

"Previous to the Onin War (1467) there were in Japan some 260 feudal houses (daimyo). By the year 1600 all but a dozen or so of these had disappeared or sunk into insignificance, while other families, rather less in number, had risen to power in their stead, often from small beginnings as vassals or rear-vassals and sometimes from complete obscurity. The houses that survived were for the most part those entrenched in the western or north-eastern extremities of Japan where they were beyond the reach of central authority."

The powerful families like the Takeda, Uesugi and Imagawa weren't the only daimyo: they were just the most influential ones who forced the hundreds of other daimyo to submit to their overlordship. A CK-style vassalisation mechanic seems perfect for representing it, especially if it's easy for a vassal to break free if the man in charge is weak or unlucky.

 

[Sakura]

When Tokugawa reorganized the nation around 1600, there were around 200 domains. Assuming that some of the daimyo were purged in the aftermath of the civil war, I would assume that 260 seems a realistic number.

Ah, but things were different in 1467

In 1467 there were less than 70 daimyo in all of Japan (one for each province), and domains didn't exist yet because the central government hadn't yet collapsed and the shoen system was still in place.

But anyway, getting bogged down in technical details isn't important. Here is a map showing the domains located in what is now Hyogo prefecture at the end of the Edo period. I think it shows why Paradox would need a lot more than 350 provinces to portray the holdings of every samurai family

 

[Sakura]

I took the number from Japan: A Short Cultural History by G B Sansom:

"Previous to the Onin War (1467) there were in Japan some 260 feudal houses (daimyo). By the year 1600 all but a dozen or so of these had disappeared or sunk into insignificance, while other families, rather less in number, had risen to power in their stead, often from small beginnings as vassals or rear-vassals and sometimes from complete obscurity. The houses that survived were for the most part those entrenched in the western or north-eastern extremities of Japan where they were beyond the reach of central authority."

The powerful families like the Takeda, Uesugi and Imagawa weren't the only daimyo: they were just the most influential ones who forced the hundreds of other daimyo to submit to their overlordship. A CK-style vassalisation mechanic seems perfect for representing it, especially if it's easy for a vassal to break free if the man in charge is weak or unlucky.

It's not worth further derailing the thread so I don't want to get too hung up on it, but Sansom is, to be charitable, being loose with his terminology. When the Onin War started the only daimyo were the shugo daimyo, constables appointed by the Ashikaga over each province. The more numerous sengoku daimyo came later.

 

[DarthJF]

Warrrior monks for sure. And christianity and foreign missionaries. In fact as some of the daimyos themselves converted to christianity it would be pretty cool if you could convert yourself and unite Japan as a christian shogun.

Overall I wish that late game represents the whole religious situation with the established shinto and buddhist sects and agressive christian missionaries trying to make inroads into the religious scene of Japan. Support Christians and reap benefits in acquiring European arms, but get negative consequences as the social stability in your domains comes under pressure and risk alienating the old buddhist/shinto elites.

Rice fields. Kansai and Kanto are the largest and most fertile plains in Japan and the source of most of its food. Anyone able to assert control over these should be able to reach huge benefits.

 

[Wilsonrtf]

- Travelling duelists;
- Rampaging bandits;
- Family heirlooms;
- Tea cerimonies.

 

[StephenT]

When the Onin War started the only daimyo were the shugo daimyo, constables appointed by the Ashikaga over each province. The more numerous sengoku daimyo came later.

Well, could this be incorporated into the game? Maybe shugo daimyo could be a title granted by the shogun to the controller of a province, giving benefits (prestige, better control over vassals, or the like) but also restricting the actions you can take since you're supposed to be an agent of the central government. Eventually, most players will take the decision to go independent and gain greater freedom of action, especially if the game is designed such that the benefits of being a shugo daimyo decline as the Ashikaga shogunate loses power. Kind of like the HRE mechanics in EUIII. Would that work?

 

[StephenT]

An obvious one: provinces that match the historical province borders. With larger provinces split into multiple sub-units to make movement more accurate.

 

[Tronjer]

I got a brief wish list: depth, details, micromanagement and historical accuracy.

 

[Sakura]

Well, could this be incorporated into the game? Maybe shugo daimyo could be a title granted by the shogun to the controller of a province, giving benefits (prestige, better control over vassals, or the like) but also restricting the actions you can take since you're supposed to be an agent of the central government. Eventually, most players will take the decision to go independent and gain greater freedom of action, especially if the game is designed such that the benefits of being a shugo daimyo decline as the Ashikaga shogunate loses power. Kind of like the HRE mechanics in EUIII. Would that work?

It's an interesting idea, but I think the game would have to start earlier than 1467 for it to work. With the beginning of the Onin War, I think that ship has already sailed

What I hope to see Sengoku capture is the instability of the period. The collapse of great houses and the rise of local lords from nothing. As the Sansom bit you quoted notes, few of the old guard houses made it. Most of the "big names" of the Sengoku period, the Mori, the Tokugawa, the Oda, the Hojo, the Date, etc., were second-tier or lower families in 1467. I want to see the collapse of the old order and the rise of a new one.

 

[Lahvac]

Concubines and geishas.

 

[DarthJF]

Most of the "big names" of the Sengoku period, the Mori, the Tokugawa, the Oda, the Hojo, the Date, etc., were second-tier or lower families in 1467. I want to see the collapse of the old order and the rise of a new one.

Ture. I hope the clans fortunes are prone to rise and fall quickly depending upon the individual heading them. Hideyoshi himself had very humble roots, but within a lifetime he succeeded in forging his own rule over Japan by first serving Nobunaga and then himself.

In fact it would be great if during the game I as the player would experience shifting fortunes multiple times. Maybe I get close on achieving hegemony over Japan, but then my clan leader dies at the most opportune time, and I end up becoming vassal for some opportunistic clan that takes advantage of my difficulties, only to re-emerge after scheming their downfall.

Being able to play a campaign like that would be epic.

 

[eleinvisible]

1) A more detailed army system, not just generic cavalry, infantry and guns. I want some type of HOI detail here, Samurai, Gun Samurai, Bushi Spearmen and Arquebusiers and what not. Not on the level of HOI specificity, but better than V2 or EU3, since I imagine this will mainly be a character and war game.
2) It would be a blast if they include some options to go invading Korea, I always felt that would be fun. It isn't on the map, but oh well! Maybe an expansion?
3) I would love to see naked Japanese women, but I don't think that'll happen.
4) Japanese themed art work whenever ever an event happens! Hiroshige style art would be great.
5) References to Princess Mononoke. This probably won't happen.

I guess that is all.

 

[monsterfurby]

Ture. I hope the clans fortunes are prone to rise and fall quickly depending upon the individual heading them. Hideyoshi himself had very humble roots, but within a lifetime he succeeded in forging his own rule over Japan by first serving Nobunaga and then himself.

In fact it would be great if during the game I as the player would experience shifting fortunes multiple times. Maybe I get close on achieving hegemony over Japan, but then my clan leader dies at the most opportune time, and I end up becoming vassal for some opportunistic clan that takes advantage of my difficulties, only to re-emerge after scheming their downfall.

Being able to play a campaign like that would be epic.

I absolutely agree with this. One thing I am hoping for one day in Paradox' games is that even a good player will have to fight "retreating battles" once in a while, or even be able to gain by losing. Cataclysmic events that destabilize a player's otherwise solid progress and are hinted at beforehand, or other things that might get in the way are very welcome.

 

[Zeek40]

This seems obvious, but how about a UI overhaul.

I want to be able to mod the user interface.

Paradox games generally have great gameplay, but terrible user interfaces that all seem to stem from the same embarrassingly simple design philosophy "draw a map and throw dialogs up" which needs a desperate usability overhaul. In EU3 how many moue clicks does it take to figure out how large a nation's army is? (something I do rather frequently.)

First you've got to click the ledger, then you've got to click the nation's overview, then you have to click 'next page' five or six times, then you've got to scroll through a list of a few hundred nations searching for the one you're looking for. So that's seven or eight mouseclicks and a search through a long ass list to get one bit of information, and it's a rather important bit of information that I look for pretty frequently. That is an unacceptable situation from a usability standpoint.

More examples: why are notification messages not summarized in a singe window? I've played games as a memeber of the HRE where declaring war brought up twenty or thirty 'alliance honored' dialogs that i have to close. That is also unacceptable from a usability standpoint, which people who write internet browsers realized about ten years ago.

I'm sure everyone who has played a Paradox game could write a novel about their own personal gripes with the UI, and it seems to be what changes the least between your games, please let the mod community help you with that.