What would you actually use cadet branches for if they were in the game?

[CatilinamSum]

I'd use them, yeah, but it's not a feature I'm willing to riot over. I already do something similar by landing illegitimate bastards of my dynasty, thus creating new houses. It has no particular gameplay advantage beyond the first generation; it mostly just looks cool.

I would rather see imperial government, deeper economics, and more unique religious/cultural mechanics first.

 

[BaronIronmaggot]

I did a bit reading on cadet branches and its seems to be the natural thing that comes with primogeniture succession. It essentially seems to be the softer form of sending one's sons to become monks to disinherit them. A cadet branch permits the holder to do less prestigious things and also doesn't expect the holder to be as prestigious as the main dynasty line. A cadet branch also disinherits the holder of the branch and makes it impossible to claim the throne unless there is absolutely no one to inherit from the main dynasty line.

I think that it would be a fun mechanic. Here is how I think it could work.

• A ruler and his sons bear the exact same Coat of Arms while the ruler is alive.
• Upon death of the ruler, the heir inherits the main Coat of Arms and the main dynasty.
• Those sons who didn't inherit, will be turned into cadet branches immediately.
• The Coat of Arms of the primary heir remains the same as father's.
• The Coat of Arms of other children will receive a single random modification from the original, but the computer has to check that the new Coat of Arms is original in the world, if not the computer keeps trying to generate the new Coat of Arms until a unique one is found.
• The cadet branch has to choose a new name for oneself.
• The dynasty screen will display cadet branches differently. Similarly to how the dynasty screen displays a member of a dynasty marrying into another dynasty. Each son will have a shield below them, indicating which branch they turned into. Clicking onto it will take to their new dynastic screen. The cadet branch dynastic screen will have shield to the origin dynasty coat of arms above the first member of the cadet branch and clicking on it will bring one to the origin dynasty.
• Being turned into a cadet branch should not be a game over, since the dynasty is just split from the main one not overtaken by another dynasty.
• Being made into a cadet branch will immediately remove any claims which one had by being a member of the main branch. A member of a cadet branch can only inherit from the main line if the main line has no eligible inheritors left and the person is closest possible candidate in blood proximity.
• The cadet branch in mechanics would act like a separate dynasty from the main dynasty. The main line would not have any easier time making alliances with its cadet branches.
• Cadet branches themselves can and will branch the same way.

Pros of Cadet Branch:

• Significantly cuts down on the size of the dynasty and thus the potential for trouble.
• Reduces the amount of potential claimants for the throne.

Cons of Cadet Branch:

• Much less friends in the world since cadet branches would be considered as separate dynasties from the main line.
• Much less eligible heirs which would make the main line weak to dedicated dynasty spanning assassination campaigns.

 

[vicbus]

I did a bit reading on cadet branches and its seems to be the natural thing that comes with primogeniture succession. It essentially seems to be the softer form of sending one's sons to become monks to disinherit them. A cadet branch permits the holder to do less prestigious things and also doesn't expect the holder to be as prestigious as the main dynasty line. A cadet branch also disinherits the holder of the branch and makes it impossible to claim the throne unless there is absolutely no one to inherit from the main dynasty line.

I think that it would be a fun mechanic. Here is how I think it could work.

• A ruler and his sons bear the exact same Coat of Arms while the ruler is alive.
• Upon death of the ruler, the heir inherits the main Coat of Arms and the main dynasty.
• Those sons who didn't inherit, will be turned into cadet branches immediately.
• The Coat of Arms of the primary heir remains the same as father's.
• The Coat of Arms of other children will receive a single random modification from the original, but the computer has to check that the new Coat of Arms is original in the world, if not the computer keeps trying to generate the new Coat of Arms until a unique one is found.
• The cadet branch has to choose a new name for oneself.
• The dynasty screen will display cadet branches differently. Similarly to how the dynasty screen displays a member of a dynasty marrying into another dynasty. Each son will have a shield below them, indicating which branch they turned into. Clicking onto it will take to their new dynastic screen. The cadet branch dynastic screen will have shield to the origin dynasty coat of arms above the first member of the cadet branch and clicking on it will bring one to the origin dynasty.
• Being turned into a cadet branch should not be a game over, since the dynasty is just split from the main one not overtaken by another dynasty.
• Being made into a cadet branch will immediately remove any claims which one had by being a member of the main branch. A member of a cadet branch can only inherit from the main line if the main line has no eligible inheritors left and the person is closest possible candidate in blood proximity.
• The cadet branch in mechanics would act like a separate dynasty from the main dynasty. The main line would not have any easier time making alliances with its cadet branches.
• Cadet branches themselves can and will branch the same way.

Pros of Cadet Branch:

• Significantly cuts down on the size of the dynasty and thus the potential for trouble.
• Reduces the amount of potential claimants for the throne.

Cons of Cadet Branch:

• Much less friends in the world since cadet branches would be considered as separate dynasties from the main line.
• Much less eligible heirs which would make the main line weak to dedicated dynasty spanning assassination campaigns.

I agree, but I think the cadet brothers shouldn't lose their claim to your title immediately, that would be too easy. They should have a strong claim as usual and, if they succeed in usurping your title they would usurp the main dynasty as well

 

[Thure]

• Those sons who didn't inherit, will be turned into cadet branches immediately.

I think this would be way to much. I mean... how many cadet branches would the Karolingian dynasty have with this mechanics if EVERY son get's a own cadet branch?

And if it's only affect Children without any inheritance:

How would Capet cadet dynasties work? The cadet dynasties of the Capetian dynasty were all landed.

 

[Inquisitor Silenus]

It depends on how cadet dynasties function.


If they still give an opinion bonus and still give prestige bonuses, then they'd be great for forming distinct family branches when you're blobbing all over the place.

This actually makes it sound like fun.

I had a Byzantine Empire->Roman Empire game where I had some very far-flung dynasty members, and in some situations it made no sense: The family was spread out over all of the Roman Empire, but there is also a branch of Franks and Frisians (and even some Dutch) from back when I married someone into that area. They got landed, set up their own family, and became fairly powerful in that area while I was off doing Rome things. Same with the daughter I set up who grew up Lombard, and who I eventually set up as the Queen (and later Exarch) of Italy, or the Venetian Doge of our family line. I also planned to set up yet another dynasty member as a King somewhere in Russia, who could be relied upon as a bulwark against the legions of pagans up there and who could convert the region to Orthodoxy without me having to administer it myself. All possibilities for cadet branches.

There is something very, very enjoyable about spreading your dynasty around, particularly when it's a dynasty that is small, to begin with. Opening up the Dynasty page in the ledger and seeing Greeks. Dutch, French, Italians and even welsh is cool. I still remember my first game ever where I managed to place someone of my dynasty on the Norweigan throne through clever marriage policies (although I did eventually have to go up there to put down a rebellion for them).

I guess what I would say is that cadet branches sound like they could be interesting and fun, but only if they work in tandem with the already existing mechanics, and don't remove the fun of dynastic intrigue. It makes sense that the brother I married off to a Frisian Duchess and who founded a family of his own over there would have his own little branch of the family considered distinct from the rest (same with the brother that became a Doge), but if he became a totally new dynasty entirely that was considered unrelated to mine, what would have been the point of sending him there in the first place?

 

[fishface60]

I've got vague recollections of being told that if you have too many vassals of your dynasty then the game slows down because of code scoped to members of your dynasty.
Some form of Cadet dynasty mechanic could be added, like when diseases were expanded to cull unnecessary character bloat, to improve long-term performance.

 

[elvain]

I can't think of any particular gameplay use of Cadet branches/dynasties in current game.
But they would certainly have good use as a tool for dynamic splitting and merging of clans, tribes and tribal confederations if the devs would ever adopt the suggestion of Qabila tribes.

There the cadet branch creates a new clan within a tribe and as such can later evolve into separate tribe fighting to dominate the tribal confederation. But if 2 tribes are related more closely to one another, their closer ties might result in closer cooperation, stronger tribal solidarity and thus more power within the tribal confederation => higher chance to dominate it.

Outside of islamic world such a feature could nicely work especialy in clan dominated areas such as Scotland or Armenia.

This all assumes that Cadet branch would have some bonuses very similar to same dynasty, but different.
Creating a cadet branch would require surrendering some high rank title to either a bastard or a cousin or uncle of your current character. This cadet branch would then be disqualified from immediate succession, but could also prevent a game over (but this might be set up in game rules, the default should be that if cadet branch takes over, it IS game over).

 

[Will Steel]

Roleplaying and immersion about historicity.

And creation of new dynasties if needed, from bastards or estranged family members. In fact I would love to play as a fictional cadet branch of famous dynasties by using ruler designer.

And for great mods like A Game of Thrones, where cadet branches can play a very significant role but have to be based on workarounds yet.

 

[vicbus]

Roleplaying and immersion about historicity.

And creation of new dynasties if needed, from bastards or estranged family members. In fact I would love to play as a fictional cadet branch of famous dynasties by using ruler designer.

And for great mods like A Game of Thrones, where cadet branches can play a very significant role but have to be based on workarounds yet.

I've been away from the mod for a while. How has it been implemented? Are they only for bastards?

 

[Will Steel]

I've been away from the mod for a while. How has it been implemented? Are they only for bastards?

From what I have seen so far, yes it is only for the bastards. And at that, only the bastards of the great houses. It is event driven but works for the purpose.

House Goldfyre (a Targaryen bastard inheriting Westerlands) has been my favourite cadet branch playthrough so far.

 

[The Shacks]

Yeah in the mod it basically pops up and lets you cycle through name choices till your happy, much like with your flagship.

 

[Czert]

1) Vassal Merchant Republics so that my dynasty is technically generating money but is also not stealing my perfect heirs
2) Vassal Khans/Neighbouring Khagans through a claim war. All prestige based successions eventually bite you in the arse so cadet branches could prevent that
3) Prevent Decadence when playing as a Muslim. Now you have to do it by fathering bastards which hits piety and makes your wives hate you
4) Vassals of different cadet branches are less likely to marry one another as opposed to vassals of your dynasty, which means fewer super dukes/kings forming via inheritance and neater borders are easier to maintain. No more King of England inheriting Anatolia because his mother was the only daughter of its king.
5) RP

hmmm, so you want to create cadet branch but still keep it controling ?

 

[Chlodio]

I did a bit reading on cadet branches and its seems to be the natural thing that comes with primogeniture succession.

I don't know what you read but it seems misinterpreted to say the least. I'm resisting my urges to take this to /r/badhistory.

Cadet branches have nothing to do with succession of primogeniture specifically, but with the principle of primogeniture, which would often determine what branch would be senior while others would be junior and cadets of that branch.

And they could result from any form of succession, specially partible inheritance. In fact following only succession of primogeniture would secure that there would be no cadet branches. Many European rulers who adopted primogeniture had a tradition of landing their younger sons before their death, this is known as secondogeniture, which is the only reason reason cadet branches were created for houses that followed primogeniture.

It essentially seems to be the softer form of sending one's sons to become monks to disinherit them. A cadet branch also disinherits the holder of the branch and makes it impossible to claim the throne unless there is absolutely no one to inherit from the main dynasty line.

No. It doesn't have anything with disinheritance, I really don't how you would draw that conclusion. Appanages were created for younger in order to appease them and as a caution to prevent extinction of entire house. Their succession status did not change, it is just that because many Europeans followed primogeniture which would mean that oldest son's descendants would be go before others and several junior branched tried usurping the senior branch.

 

[Thure]

Cadet Branch couldn't even disinherite, because many Cadet branches evolved naturally. There was nobody who said 'You're now a cadet branch!'

 

[Paxter Redwyne]

Not everyone enjoy having bazillion dynasty members scattered across the world over whom you have completely no control.

 

[BaronIronmaggot]

@Chlodio Well, that is what I got from skimming the Cadet Branch wiki page. If you know how cadet branches worked, then explain how they actually worked and also explain how they would function within the constraints of CK 2.

Simply pointing out what is wrong is half the work.

 

[SeekTruthFromFx]

I think this would be way to much. I mean... how many cadet branches would the Karolingian dynasty have with this mechanics if EVERY son get's a own cadet branch?

And if it's only affect Children without any inheritance:

How would Capet cadet dynasties work? The cadet dynasties of the Capetian dynasty were all landed.

How about creating cadet dynasties when landed male dynasty members leave the realm of the main dynasty?

I realize that's a fairly vague standard, but you could implement it using some simple rules.

When a liege changes, the game calls a function as follows:
- Was the old liege from the same dynasty as the vassal?
----> No: no effect, return.
----> Yes: is the new liege from the same dynasty as the vassal?
------------------> Yes: no effect, return.
------------------> No: create a cadet branch for the vassal and his (matrilineal: her) descendants.

When an adventurer wins a war, the game calls a function as follows:
- Does the adventurer become a vassal?
----> Yes: is the new liege from the same dynasty as the adventurer?
------------------> Yes: no effect, return.
------------------> No: create a cadet branch for the adventurer and his (matrilineal: her) descendants.
----> No: was the loser in this war from the same dynasty as the adventurer?
------------------> Yes: no effect, return.
------------------> No: create a cadet branch for the adventurer and his (matrilineal: her) descendants.

So the Duke of Brittany's cousin somehow ends up ruling Crete, they're going to be in a cadet branch. On the other hand, landing his second son in Rennes won't create a cadet branch - unless the King of France/Emperor of Francia conquers the territory from the Duke, in which case the House of Brittany-Rennes will set off on their new destiny, but still with an opinion bonus to their siblings->cousins->kinfolk over the border.

 

[Thure]

How about creating cadet dynasties when landed male dynasty members leave the realm of the main dynasty?

This wouldn't work with Capetian Cadet Dynasties. Most of them were still landed in France.

 

[King Anund]

Cadet branches would not work in the game unless you are permitted to play as them, thus making them de facto your dynasty. Historically most known cadet branches (de Valois, de Bourbon, of York, of Lancaster) were created when given a landed title to a relative (mostly second, third and so sons), which would mean game over if your character dies and then the creator of the cadet branch inherits.

The other type of cadet branches (bastards) already exist.

 

[elvain]

I think it could work either as suggested above by @SeekTruthFromFx or with added condition/possibility in in which a title held by a single side branch of a dynasty stays in power for 3rd generation in row, a cadet branch is held, if the title is no lesser than 1 tier below the main branches main title.

This means, if main Capet branch holds k_france and its side branch holds d_burgundy, d_valois, d_anjou or d_bourbon or whatever French duchy for 3 generations straight (father-son-grandson), it becomes a cadet branch. If the main branch holds an empire title, a k_tier would be required. The question is whether this should be also possible with c_tier under duke dynasties.
In the muslim tribal world even the split of d_tier dynasties should definitely be possible, because the d_tier should be a base of tribes and c_tier for their sub-tribes, which could later become independent tribes.