What Would Happen If You Made the US Become the Alliance Leader?

  • We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.
Aug 31, 2011
535
1
It seems to me that by the end of both WWs the US was the de facto leader of their alliances. If you made the US the leader of the Entente/Allies (not necessarily at the beginning of the game, but simply by having an decision that allows them to become leader once they are in the alliance) it seems like the Central Power/Axis AI would always lose, since it's really only the vulnerability of England that allows them to force a peace. I have never seen the AI put a dent in the USA.

Which raises another question: can the AI ever beat the US? I find they can often barely take out England and Russia...
 
Last edited:

Myrmidones

Second Lieutenant
9 Badges
Jun 26, 2011
106
0
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Darkest Hour
  • Deus Vult
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2
  • 500k Club
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Knight (pre-order)
It seems to me that by the end of both WWs the US was the de facto leader of their alliances.
It definitely wasn't a leader of the alliance in WWI. Where did you get this idea?
In WWII, yes, it probably should become the leader of the allies, if it joins them. I don't think it would have too many repercussions.

Which raises another question: can the AI ever beat the US? I find they can often barely take out England and Russia...
The AI isn't able to beat the US, but that's normal. (If it was able to beat it there would be a problem.)
I don't think anyone could have invaded the US in both WWs.
 
Aug 31, 2011
535
1
It definitely wasn't a leader of the alliance in WWI. Where did you get this idea?
Because the USA extended, aggravated and enforced a one-sided total conquest victory in WW1; without it there would have been a stalemate and return to near-status quo as was typical for European wars.
The AI isn't able to beat the US, but that's normal. (If it was able to beat it there would be a problem.)
I don't think anyone could have invaded the US in both WWs.
Totally true, but that means if the USA assumed alliance leadership the allies would always win unless a player was controlling the Axis.
 

Myrmidones

Second Lieutenant
9 Badges
Jun 26, 2011
106
0
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Darkest Hour
  • Deus Vult
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2
  • 500k Club
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Knight (pre-order)
Because the USA extended, aggravated and enforced a one-sided total conquest victory in WW1; without it there would have been a stalemate and return to near-status quo as was typical for European wars.
Yes, the USA definitely helped a lot for the total victory of the Entente, but that didn't make them the leaders...
The main negociators were still France and UK.
Totally true, but that means if the USA assumed alliance leadership the allies would always win unless a player was controlling the Axis.
What do you mean by "win"? If the Germans defeat Russia and UK, I doubt the US would be able to defeat them.
 

Rotten Venetic

Field Marshal
6 Badges
Jun 10, 2006
4.289
10
  • Darkest Hour
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron III Collection
  • 500k Club
If by "defeat them" you mean "nuke them into the stone age and invade the radioactive ruins of the Grossdeutches Reich" then they'd have a pretty good shot, actually.
 
Aug 31, 2011
535
1
If by "defeat them" you mean "nuke them into the stone age and invade the radioactive ruins of the Grossdeutches Reich" then they'd have a pretty good shot, actually.
Yes, the USA is basically the full IC of Germany and Russia combined with the tech teams of Germany and the UK combined. It only ever loses to players, and then usually by exploited the brain-dead AI.

And, if it chains IC, the USA can easily outmatch the IC of a Germany which conquers European Russia, the West and England. They'll still have more resources and a better navy than the Germans, and if they abandon their terrible doctrine and use the German one instead they're invincible.

While the USA was insanely powerful, they're massively overpowered in the game. One of the biggest missing features was that most public opinion was against the war until PH and the Japanese didn't just attack the US for no reason like a bunch of lunatics. You should have the option of not sanctioning and harassing the Japanese, which means they won't ever attack you and you'll have huge dissent if you try to go to war. It's just way to easy to turn the USA into a war machine and get rid of dissent.
 
Last edited:

son of liberty

3%
10 Badges
Oct 3, 2006
7.782
16
  • Arsenal of Democracy
  • Hearts of Iron II: Armageddon
  • Darkest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron III Collection
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Supreme Ruler 2020
  • Supreme Ruler: Cold War
  • 500k Club
The other thing you need then is a spy mission along the lines of a "false flag attack". Like Hitler did with Poland, or like some people claim happened on 9/11. False flag missions are something I would really love to see, but yeah it would turn the US into even more of a monster as it digested all of Central and South America. LOL.
 

A-Train

Second Lieutenant
87 Badges
Sep 22, 2006
166
0
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Semper Fi
  • Victoria 2
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • 500k Club
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Cities: Skylines Deluxe Edition
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Knight (pre-order)
  • Europa Universalis III: Collection
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Europa Universalis: Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Darkest Hour
  • Deus Vult
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Divine Wind
  • Hearts of Iron II: Armageddon
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Iron Cross
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
To be honest I think that the US is not far off historically. In fact it may be a bit tuned down from historical reality. "The Rise and Fall of The Great Powers" by Paul Kennedy has a fascinating section where he goes over the statistics of American production during WW2. It is simply mind blowing when you read how much the US produced. In 1943 and 1944 the US GDP was almost as high as all other major powers (Allied as well as Axis) combined. Even if Germany has most of Europe, Western Russia and the UK home islands and you assume that they could get full production out of all of these occupied territories they still would not come close to US production IRL. This creates big issues for WW2 games, especially ones with global scale. The US was so powerful in terms of production it is hard for the whole war to not become deterministic. Yamamoto was right about the US being a sleeping giant.
 

Dichromate

Colonel
46 Badges
Aug 13, 2009
1.143
2
  • Darkest Hour
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Divine Wind
  • Arsenal of Democracy
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Hearts of Iron III Collection
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Victoria 2
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • 500k Club
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Mount & Blade: Warband
  • Mount & Blade: With Fire and Sword
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Stellaris
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
To be honest I think that the US is not far off historically. In fact it may be a bit tuned down from historical reality. "The Rise and Fall of The Great Powers" by Paul Kennedy has a fascinating section where he goes over the statistics of American production during WW2. It is simply mind blowing when you read how much the US produced. In 1943 and 1944 the US GDP was almost as high as all other major powers (Allied as well as Axis) combined. Even if Germany has most of Europe, Western Russia and the UK home islands and you assume that they could get full production out of all of these occupied territories they still would not come close to US production IRL. This creates big issues for WW2 games, especially ones with global scale. The US was so powerful in terms of production it is hard for the whole war to not become deterministic. Yamamoto was right about the US being a sleeping giant.

It is worth remembering that the Germans (stupidly) never really fully mobilized economically, and didn't start seriously gearing up until after the tide at turned. A Germany that had conquered everything from Great Britain to the Urals and thereby done away with the threat of strategic bombing, and then on top of that fully mobilized economically with women in factories and the like would probably be stronger than the game at the moment gives it credit for.

It's kinda hard to represent economic mobilization well though, as well as being difficult to balance it. I don't really have a problem with the way things are now.
 

Rotten Venetic

Field Marshal
6 Badges
Jun 10, 2006
4.289
10
  • Darkest Hour
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron III Collection
  • 500k Club
...and if they abandon their terrible doctrine and use the German one instead they're invincible.

What's the problem with Superior Firepower again? IIRC, it won.
 

unmerged(189717)

East vs West developer
9 Badges
Jan 8, 2010
2.137
8
  • Hearts of Iron Anthology
  • Arsenal of Democracy
  • Darkest Hour
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Iron Cross
  • Majesty 2
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • 500k Club
Because the USA extended, aggravated and enforced a one-sided total conquest victory in WW1; without it there would have been a stalemate and return to near-status quo as was typical for European wars.

The US entry shortened the war, but IMO the Entente didn't even need the USA to win the war. Germany was already starting to starve in 1917 and their last big offensive (Kaiserschlacht) was against French and Commonwealth troops.
 

Lanassa

Imperatrix
38 Badges
Jan 14, 2008
343
0
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Divine Wind
  • Darkest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Europa Universalis: Rome
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Victoria 2
  • 500k Club
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV
The US entry shortened the war, but IMO the Entente didn't even need the USA to win the war. Germany was already starting to starve in 1917 and their last big offensive (Kaiserschlacht) was against French and Commonwealth troops.
If the Americans had not joined the war when they did, the British would have run out of American currency in about April or May 1917. Unable to purchase the relevant raw materials (and some finished products) from the United States, they would have been compelled to seek alternatives elsewhere, among the Empire, in Argentina, and so on - alternatives that they were already pursuing to the best of their ability anyway. It's not clear whether the British would run out of food or military supplies first, but it is clear that the army on the Continent would be quickly immobilized, that riotous conditions would have developed in Britain itself, that industry, unable to supply all of its needs with American raw materials, would have ground to a halt, with concomitant increases in social conflict, and that even Lloyd George would have found it difficult to support a continuation of the war under such circumstances.

Furthermore, the success of British finances during the war buttressed that of France; if the British either stopped buying in America or were forced to stop buying by the American Federal Reserve (something that briefly happened in 1916 as it was; the British desperately tried to shore up supplies by buying elsewhere in the Americas, but it wasn't enough, while the City exchanges took a huge hit - of course there was a run on the pound as well - the Americans reversed their stance quickly on the grounds that the British weren't totally overleveraged in the US yet, but by March 1917, the British situation with regard to the amount of dollars on hand had gotten considerably worse, not better), the French would have taken an even bigger hit. French borrowing was sustained by the impression that British industry could fuel the Entente war effort, and sometimes even by direct British financial support. If it was made inescapably clear that the British could not, in fact, fuel the war effort, the French economy would collapse right along with that of Britain.

Hence the resumption of unrestricted U-boat warfare was precisely the worst possible policy for Germany in the spring of 1917; not only did the counter-blockade fail, but the British were rescued from virtually certain economic collapse by the entry of the United States into the war, which shored up British finances and made victory possible again.

Or, to put it another way: Erich Ludendorff was the Tony Romo of World War I.
 

son of liberty

3%
10 Badges
Oct 3, 2006
7.782
16
  • Arsenal of Democracy
  • Hearts of Iron II: Armageddon
  • Darkest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron III Collection
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Supreme Ruler 2020
  • Supreme Ruler: Cold War
  • 500k Club
What's the problem with Superior Firepower again? IIRC, it won.
Actually, it didn't. The US "won" WWII with it's industry. They built ships faster than the Axis could sink them. One German panzer was better then five American tanks, but the Americans always had that sixth tank. The US out produced the entire rest of the world combined in 1943-45. It was a mix of American equipment and Russian blood that beat the Germans. Our doctrines sucked until the war was pretty much over.
 

unmerged(160821)

First Lieutenant
Aug 31, 2009
267
0
away with the threat of strategic bombing, and then on top of that fully mobilized economically with women in factories and the like would probably be stronger than the game at the moment gives it credit for.

Thats something people dont always realise in Alt history scenarios they always say the usa would of nuked Germany but without Britain as a launch point the best they could do would be launch a few bombers off of an aircraft carrier like the Doolittle raid, im pretty sure the larger us bombers would not have fit on aircraft carriers anyways atleast the early carriers. This means at best they could hit somewhere in France or at best western Germany but they wouldnt get Berlin.

On the other hand the Germans by 1946 would have had working A9/A10 rockets and uranium bombs and they could have hit important US east coast cities almost at will.
 

unmerged(238359)

Corporal
1 Badges
Dec 11, 2010
27
0
  • Darkest Hour
Thats something people dont always realise in Alt history scenarios they always say the usa would of nuked Germany but without Britain as a launch point the best they could do would be launch a few bombers off of an aircraft carrier like the Doolittle raid, im pretty sure the larger us bombers would not have fit on aircraft carriers anyways atleast the early carriers. This means at best they could hit somewhere in France or at best western Germany but they wouldnt get Berlin.

On the other hand the Germans by 1946 would have had working A9/A10 rockets and uranium bombs and they could have hit important US east coast cities almost at will.

The A-9/10 only had a projected payload half that of the the American atom bombs dropped on Japan, so no, the Germans couldn't have hit US cities with missile launched nukes. And that is assuming that the Germans could actually make the thing work, which I find rather dubious, considering the nature of project. The Germans building an early intermediate ranged ballistic missile by 1946, a feat only achieved in the late 50's by other nations is rather unlikely. Like so many members of the napkinwaffe, chances are that the thing would have remained on paper and was simply unfeasibly given the technology of the time. This is itself ignoring the many problems that the German nuclear bomb project encountered, and assumes that they wold have actually been capable of producing functions bombs in 1946, in and of itself one major leap.

By comparison, the US didn't need any half-baked Amerikabombers, or kooky ideas of ICBMs and orbital bombers. The US, from the start of the war, had feared that Britain might fall, and as early as 1941 had begun development of bombers with the range needed to reach the heart of Germany from North America, without using the British Isles as a base. The B-36 was never given very high priority since it soon became apparent that Germany was incapable of actually pulling off an invasion of Britain, but even so it still flew in 1946. And heck, there were still bases on Greenland and Iceland, bases from which even the B-29 was capable of reaching Berlin. I'd take the proven track record of the American bomb and bomber projects over the unproven and often hopelessly optimistic last-ditch weapons that the Germs were experimenting with in the last days of the war.
 

varietygamer

Banned
19 Badges
Nov 15, 2008
171
0
www.varietygamer.com
  • Darkest Hour
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Semper Fi
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Majesty 2
  • Magicka
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • For the Motherland
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Victoria 2
  • Warlock: Master of the Arcane
  • 500k Club
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Mount & Blade: Warband
  • Mount & Blade: With Fire and Sword
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
To be honest I think that the US is not far off historically. In fact it may be a bit tuned down from historical reality. "The Rise and Fall of The Great Powers" by Paul Kennedy has a fascinating section where he goes over the statistics of American production during WW2. It is simply mind blowing when you read how much the US produced. In 1943 and 1944 the US GDP was almost as high as all other major powers (Allied as well as Axis) combined. Even if Germany has most of Europe, Western Russia and the UK home islands and you assume that they could get full production out of all of these occupied territories they still would not come close to US production IRL. This creates big issues for WW2 games, especially ones with global scale. The US was so powerful in terms of production it is hard for the whole war to not become deterministic. Yamamoto was right about the US being a sleeping giant.

By 1945, the soviets had 3x numerical advantage to ALL allied forces in the world. Not just men but armor, artillery, etc. There is a reason the british dubbed their proposed sneak attack 'operational unthinkable'. This never changed, up until collpase the soviet union even in peacetime maintained over 5 million uniformed personnel. And by 1948 the soviets also had nukes.

A large gdp arising from a high consumer goods society is nice, a massive military and the society to maintain it even in peacetime is more relevant however, in the context of war.
 

son of liberty

3%
10 Badges
Oct 3, 2006
7.782
16
  • Arsenal of Democracy
  • Hearts of Iron II: Armageddon
  • Darkest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron III Collection
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Supreme Ruler 2020
  • Supreme Ruler: Cold War
  • 500k Club
By 1945, the soviets had 3x numerical advantage to ALL allied forces in the world. Not just men but armor, artillery, etc. .
Do you understand where and how the soviets got the equipment you tout so loudly? Here is a hint, most of it was not produced in the USSR.
 

unmerged(160821)

First Lieutenant
Aug 31, 2009
267
0
The A-9/10 only had a projected payload half that of the the American atom bombs dropped on Japan, so no, the Germans couldn't have hit US cities with missile launched nukes. And that is assuming that the Germans could actually make the thing work, which I find rather dubious, considering the nature of project. The Germans building an early intermediate ranged ballistic missile by 1946, a feat only achieved in the late 50's by other nations is rather unlikely. Like so many members of the napkinwaffe, chances are that the thing would have remained on paper and was simply unfeasibly given the technology of the time. This is itself ignoring the many problems that the German nuclear bomb project encountered, and assumes that they wold have actually been capable of producing functions bombs in 1946, in and of itself one major leap.

By comparison, the US didn't need any half-baked Amerikabombers, or kooky ideas of ICBMs and orbital bombers. The US, from the start of the war, had feared that Britain might fall, and as early as 1941 had begun development of bombers with the range needed to reach the heart of Germany from North America, without using the British Isles as a base. The B-36 was never given very high priority since it soon became apparent that Germany was incapable of actually pulling off an invasion of Britain, but even so it still flew in 1946. And heck, there were still bases on Greenland and Iceland, bases from which even the B-29 was capable of reaching Berlin. I'd take the proven track record of the American bomb and bomber projects over the unproven and often hopelessly optimistic last-ditch weapons that the Germs were experimenting with in the last days of the war.


Its obvious your one of those people who thinks America could have won the war singlehandedly, so I will not even attempt to engage you in debate. I would recommend you look at operation paperclip though

The Germans had unguided rockets (Taifun), target-seeking guided rockets (Enzian); operator optically-guided rockets (Rheintochter and Schmetterling); and radar-guided rockets (Wasserfall), and thats just surface to air missiles, you americans can laugh about the Amerikabomber and the Horten Ho 229 but if they had been built in any quantity (as would have happened if Germany was solely at war with America) then it would have been easy to defend Fortress Europa aswell as hit the USA.

Hell the Germans already had seaplanes that could reach new york in one go early in the war if it came to that.