What were the justifications for war and conquests of territories in real life?

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Kezzykezz

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Hey guys,

I've tried googling, but I can't find anything concrete- or I just suck at googling.
I'm guessing the Ottoman Empire had different reasons than France or Russia, what were they?
It can't possibly simply be: Fuck you, we take your land now?

Thanks
 

schondetta

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Do you have a specific instance your concerned with? The context changes at every momemt in history so its hard to make sweeping generalizations based on nation alone
 

Kezzykezz

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Yeah, I can see that.

Lets make it easy and start where EUIV starts, and pick one country. Ottomans. How did they justify taking all the land they did? The Byzantine empire first, Mamluks, Tunisians, Hungarians and several(?) attempts to seize Vienna. Wars with the Savavvids(?)

I realize this is a pretty huge question, but if you can be bothered, I would be grateful. If you have a book or an article I would be grateful for that too!
 

Kezzykezz

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the court made all the reasons they could think off to take land
there is nothing justifiable in a war of aggression
except what you justify in your own mind

Well that's my question; how did they justify it. I'm sorry the question was phrased badly.
I guess I have to be way more specific as Schondetta says.
 

ponasozis

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Well that's my question; how did they justify it. I'm sorry the question was phrased badly.
I guess I have to be way more specific as Schondetta says.

well
everything you can imagine

These heathen scum on our border must be stopped from expanding into our lands and the best way to do so is to conquer them our selves
or we cannot trust these people they have betrayed us numerous times clearly we cannot live in peace near each other war is the only option remaining
and yada yada like that they are not real justifications diplomacy was just beginning in that era of time
rulers did what they could do to expand their realm as long as they have internal noble support
 

Kezzykezz

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well
everything you can imagine

These heathen scum on our border must be stopped from expanding into our lands and the best way to do so is to conquer them our selves
or we cannot trust these people they have betrayed us numerous times clearly we cannot live in peace near each other war is the only option remaining
and yada yada like that they are not real justifications diplomacy was just beginning in that era of time
rulers did what they could do to expand their realm as long as they have internal noble support

Hahah, so EUIV isn't far off in terms of realism on that part.
I'm kinda shocked, but not really- I guess the idea of just saying "fuck you, this belongs to me" is so foreign to me that I didn't think it could be that easy.
 

ponasozis

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Hahah, so EUIV isn't far off in terms of realism on that part.
I'm kinda shocked, but not really- I guess the idea of just saying "fuck you, this belongs to me" is so foreign to me that I didn't think it could be that easy.

nobody really cared about that sort of thing in those times
if there was something you needed as a ruler or wanted and saw it in your rivals hands you would simply think of something very basic like that ask the nobles if they willing to start a war organise the levy troops and funds for them and march on to war
 

xereck

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Regarding the Ottomans, I believe many of their rulers considered themselves as the true successors to the Roman Empire and wanted to reestablish their own version of the empire. After conquering Constantinople they probably felt like their many future wars were justified, as they were reconquering former Roman territories.
 

Laurent1944

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I would say that in real life everybody had "deus veult", so attacking heretics or other religions was common.

Fighting a ruler of the same religion was something less accepted. Actually fighting was OK, what was often discussed with upper authorities (like the pope) was the propriety of the land. From what I know of this time period, justification was rather done after the war than before. So the common practice in EU4 (or CK2) to fabricate a claim for a province, so having a valid CB, and then take a dozen provinces at the end of the war was unusual in history. At least in Europe.

Still in Europe, many of the main wars (outside protestant vs catholics) were succession wars where the goal is a title, not land. This is well covered in the game.
 

ChloePech

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Yeah, I can see that.

Lets make it easy and start where EUIV starts, and pick one country. Ottomans. How did they justify taking all the land they did? The Byzantine empire first, Mamluks, Tunisians, Hungarians and several(?) attempts to seize Vienna. Wars with the Savavvids(?)

I realize this is a pretty huge question, but if you can be bothered, I would be grateful. If you have a book or an article I would be grateful for that too!

In that specific case, the Ottomans began as a successor to the nomadic Turk invaders- Ottomans being of course a (westernized version of) their dynasty name. They justified their conquest of much of Anatolia and Greece by claiming to be the successors of the Roman empire, which is why claiming Constantinople was important to them (and they even tried to conquer Italy!). Generally, countries would often claim either that a natural border made the land part of ownership by right (such as river borders), by authority of religious head (the pope), or by claiming it was necessary for them to take it, for example economically.
 

Rubidium

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I'll take a somewhat different, and perhaps more interesting, example than the Ottomans (who used religion extensively as well).

France expanded fairly consistently throughout the period, but used a variety of justifications for that expansion.

The initial situation, as with EU4, was English lands in France, followed by reclaiming Burgundy (or at least the French portion). The Hundred Years War went back to the Middle Ages and the situation where the King of England was also feudal lord of various places in France, and thus theoretically a vassal owing homage for those titles (but not for others; the Duke of Aquitaine was a vassal of the King of France, but the King of England wasn't, even though the King of England and the Duke of Aquitaine happened to be the same person). This led to various disputes (for example, a vassal of England in Aquitaine might have a dispute with the English king, and appeal to the King of France to intervene as legal overlord of Aquitaine, while the King of England would tell him to get stuffed, providing an excuse for war). The King of France could then claim that the "Duke of Aquitaine" was being a disloyal vassal, and revoke his title, providing an excuse to try and conquer the English-held lands.

Burgundy was an inheritance situation. Burgundy was officially a vassal of France, but in practice was independent. Nevertheless, when the Duke of Burgundy died without male heir, France claimed most of Burgundy due to the extinction of the house in the male line, while Austria claimed the inheritance through marriage to the daughter of the last Duke. They eventually agreed on the division in-game, but both sides continued to try and retake the whole duchy in various wars over the next couple of centuries.

Meanwhile, the French king married the last duchess of Brittany and brought that duchy into his kingdom that way, while the death of the King of Naples gave an opportunity to claim that throne (since the King of France was descended from a previous ruler in the female line), supported by a previous offer from a former Pope (who had been feuding with the King of Naples at the time and offered to give Naples to France instead), leading to the Italian Wars.

You had similar situations in other French expansions, with various ambiguous succession disputes and old treaties being cited as justification for conquest. For example, the French conquest of much of Flanders and the Low Countries was due to a dispute over the dowry of a Spanish Princess who had married the King of France (Spain was bankrupt at the time and never paid the dowry, so the French claimed her share of the Spanish Netherlands instead, leading to a war). Likewise, the War of the League of Augsburg started when the French invaded the Palatinate under the excuse that the daughter of the last Elector Palatine was married to a French prince, and thus France needed to protect her rights (and incidentally bring the Palatinate under French control).

Colonial territories tended to be much more open to straight out claims by Right of Conquest, since they were viewed as having been previously occupied by non-Europeans, whose claims were easier to ignore (although they could still be used at times when an excuse was needed, arguing that e.g. this tribe had once sworn fealty to Spain, and thus all their land was rightfully Spanish). So swapping colonies or taking them from others was much easier to justify.

After the French Revolution, of course, Revolutionary France claimed it was liberating the various places it conquered from the tyrannical rule of monarchs (sometimes establishing puppet states, sometimes annexing them outright to the Republic).
 

Dakka

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I would imagine the two most common would be:
“Your cartographer is an idiot, mine has much more accurate maps. You can clearly see this land is actually mine”
And the other being “my uncle was your father’s brother’s nephew’s cousin’s former roommate, so I have better claim to the land than you”
 

bradles0

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CK2's CBs (and war outcomes) are much more realistic than EU4's, since you can't go to war claiming a single county and then annex half the country.
You can fabricate claims on lands. You can get claims on titles (and then claim the land as the DeJure overlord of the land). You can take various provinces from heathens basically whenever. The pope can just say "ya that title belongs to you". Vikings have invasion and county conquest claims (which are really just "this is ours now" statements)
 

DFence13

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For example during first Silesian War (1740-1742) between Brandenburg and Austria real reason of invade was "fuck you, this belongs to me". But Brandenburg king also argued that part of Silesia should be iherited by Brandenburg after deaths last Silesian dukes from Piast dinasty about 100 years earlier.
 

peterlj

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I would imagine the two most common would be:
“Your cartographer is an idiot, mine has much more accurate maps. You can clearly see this land is actually mine”
And the other being “my uncle was your father’s brother’s nephew’s cousin’s former roommate, so I have better claim to the land than you”

The third being, You are a damn heathen or worse a heretic and in the eyes of god it is a good thing to kill you and take your land.
 

Kezzykezz

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The initial situation, as with EU4, was English lands in France, followed by reclaiming Burgundy (or at least the French portion). The Hundred Years War went back to the Middle Ages and the situation where the King of England was also feudal lord of various places in France, and thus theoretically a vassal owing homage for those titles (but not for others; the Duke of Aquitaine was a vassal of the King of France, but the King of England wasn't, even though the King of England and the Duke of Aquitaine happened to be the same person). This led to various disputes (for example, a vassal of England in Aquitaine might have a dispute with the English king, and appeal to the King of France to intervene as legal overlord of Aquitaine, while the King of England would tell him to get stuffed, providing an excuse for war). The King of France could then claim that the "Duke of Aquitaine" was being a disloyal vassal, and revoke his title, providing an excuse to try and conquer the English-held lands.

This is absolutely crazy! I've managed to find a wiki on the Plantagenet rulers of Aquitaine, but nothing on these small disputes you speak of, do you have any references I could look at?