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Secret Master

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Nah, I'm not disputing that your line was overpowered or something. I'm talking about the AI simply not knowing how to fight your air force.

If your enemy can run TACs (or CASs, or MRs, or STRs) 24/7 over your lines, you are screwed. Period. The AI doesn't realize this and build more air force or AA, and it dies.

I'd hesitate to use the word "exploit" since that has negative connotations, but under normal circumstances TACs shouldn't be flying uncontested. If they are contested, their power is reduced massively whenever they need to spend a week grounded for repair.

Then you agree with me 100%. :)

Other people were arguing that air power could not stop an armored offensive, and that some kind of army-based counter to armor was required. I just wanted to demonstrate that there's not an armored formation that I can't defeat by bombing it to zero ORG.
 

Less

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Right, I'm just saying that Air power is especially over-effective when deployed en-masse vs. the AI, since it can never properly prepare. In a balanced build with less air power, or against a prepared opponent, air power is substantially less effective.
 

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In a balanced build with less air power, or against a prepared opponent, air power is substantially less effective.

Is that a Mad-lib? :p

"In a balanced build with less (blank) power, or against a prepared opponent, (blank) power is substantially less effective." You can choose pretty much any context-appropriate word, plug it into both blanks, and you end up with a true statement. Air, ground, armor, mobile, paratroop, etc. In short, unbalanced application of ANY specific kind of force can be considered child abuse against the AI.
 

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Is that a Mad-lib? :p

"In a balanced build with less (blank) power, or against a prepared opponent, (blank) power is substantially less effective." You can choose pretty much any context-appropriate word, plug it into both blanks, and you end up with a true statement. Air, ground, armor, mobile, paratroop, etc. In short, unbalanced application of ANY specific kind of force can be considered child abuse against the AI.

Air Power is distinct from Land Power in that it has increasing returns the more you build, while Land Power has decreasing returns. Having 100 divisions instead of 50 is, at most, 2x as powerful, and taking into consideration limited frontage or supply or officers or stacking penalties it can easily be more like 1.5x. On the other hand, having 50 wings of fighters and bombers is far, *far* more than 2x as effective as having 25 wings. The reason is that there is a breakpoint at which bombers go from being able to perform an average of 5 sorties a week (spending the rest re-arming and getting org back) to being able to perform 30 sorties a week, because the enemy resistance is so thinly distributed as to essentially be irrelevant. And if you are fighting the AI with Air power the latter is very easy to reach in 1939.

So, no. It is not true to the same extent that it is with Air power.
 

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Air Power is distinct from Land Power in that it has increasing returns the more you build, while Land Power has decreasing returns. Having 100 divisions instead of 50 is, at most, 2x as powerful, and taking into consideration limited frontage or supply or officers or stacking penalties it can easily be more like 1.5x.

Not really, no. Having more divisions opens other doors. The entire world of tactics and strategy is not bound by frontage and stacking, any more than the world of air warfare is totally bound by air stacking penalties. The EXACT same reasons you give for air power being more effective apply equally to land power, though you seem to be unaware of it. You speak of high numbers of air wings enabling more sorties per week due to effective dilution of the target concentration, which is actually high saturation of air power, i.e. the opposite. But the effect is largely the same so we can say it either way with safety.

Imagine now 100 divisions along a battle line which only has frontage for 50 to engage at once. You call that a limit. I say it is no more a limit than having 50 wings in an AO that can only accomodate 25 on mission at once without incurring severe stacking penalties. You look at this as a World War I issue when you speak of land power, but as a World War II issue when speaking of air power, as if those divisions had no utility other than to all simultaneously assault the enemy line frontally. Here are other ways 100 division can leverage their numbers beyond what the frontage limit seems to allow:

1. They can penetrate the line at one point, form a salient, then expand that salient beyond the enemy's ability to man the now lengthened front. This will have the side effect of increasing that frontage limit way above the 50 it started at in our hypothetical case.

2. They can penetrate the line at one or two points, then form an encirclement corridor, trapping the enemy divisions within so they can be destroyed in place.

3. They can cycle on and off the battle line in an ongoing attrition battle, so that your line is always manned by high org, high strength units while your enemy's org and strength are relentlessly being reduced lower and lower until his units begin to shatter all up and down the line. Anyone who has tried taking France and going toe to toe with the Wehrmacht with a moderately historical build plan likely knows what this feels like from the other side.

And so on. So yes, it is 100% true that many kinds of unbalancing focus on one or another element can seriously unhinge the AI's ability to cope and equate to an "I Win" button in SP play. Other examples:

1. Focus your production/research on nothing but moderately cheap mobile forces, like MOT, CAV, etc, building lots of them, then just roll over your enemy in a rapid, front-wide overrun. Since AI nations will always follow the historical reliance on foot infantry, they will always be vulnerable to overrun by large numbers of even slightly faster attackers.

2. Focus your production/research on MIL plus support brigades.

3. Focus your production/research on fielding HARM along your entire front, and leverage their high armor, low softness, and high piercing to simply steamroll your enemy in a relentless, albeit slow, general assault.

And so on. Obviously some approaches are foreclosed to certain nations, while others are particularly well suited to certain nations. But there is no shortage of ways to use imbalanced build schemes to clobber the AI. Air power is only one of them...or actually two, since unbalanced strat bombing is a separate deal and also qualifies in its own right.
 

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Imagine now 100 divisions along a battle line which only has frontage for 50 to engage at once. You call that a limit. I say it is no more a limit than having 50 wings in an AO that can only accomodate 25 on mission at once without incurring severe stacking penalties. You look at this as a World War I issue when you speak of land power, but as a World War II issue when speaking of air power, as if those divisions had no utility other than to all simultaneously assault the enemy line frontally. Here are other ways 100 division can leverage their numbers beyond what the frontage limit seems to allow:

There is no such limit to air power, unless you can cover every enemy division with 3 TACs. In which case kudos, you've won the war in about 2 weeks.

1. They can penetrate the line at one point, form a salient, then expand that salient beyond the enemy's ability to man the now lengthened front. This will have the side effect of increasing that frontage limit way above the 50 it started at in our hypothetical case.

2. They can penetrate the line at one or two points, then form an encirclement corridor, trapping the enemy divisions within so they can be destroyed in place.

3. They can cycle on and off the battle line in an ongoing attrition battle, so that your line is always manned by high org, high strength units while your enemy's org and strength are relentlessly being reduced lower and lower until his units begin to shatter all up and down the line. Anyone who has tried taking France and going toe to toe with the Wehrmacht with a moderately historical build plan likely knows what this feels like from the other side.

I think you misunderstand the discussion. This is how land forces can attempt to maintain 1:1 parity. i.e., at (absolute) best 2x as many units would have 2x as much fighting power. The point isn't that Land units can't scale with size, but that they can only scale at 1:1 at best, while air forces work quite differently. If you have 2x as much air force AND you can fly 5x as many sorties because the enemy can't fight back, you now have 10x the strength for 2x the cost.

And so on. So yes, it is 100% true that many kinds of unbalancing focus on one or another element can seriously unhinge the AI's ability to cope and equate to an "I Win" button in SP play. Other examples:

1. Focus your production/research on nothing but moderately cheap mobile forces, like MOT, CAV, etc, building lots of them, then just roll over your enemy in a rapid, front-wide overrun. Since AI nations will always follow the historical reliance on foot infantry, they will always be vulnerable to overrun by large numbers of even slightly faster attackers.

2. Focus your production/research on MIL plus support brigades.

3. Focus your production/research on fielding HARM along your entire front, and leverage their high armor, low softness, and high piercing to simply steamroll your enemy in a relentless, albeit slow, general assault.

And so on. Obviously some approaches are foreclosed to certain nations, while others are particularly well suited to certain nations. But there is no shortage of ways to use imbalanced build schemes to clobber the AI. Air power is only one of them...or actually two, since unbalanced strat bombing is a separate deal and also qualifies in its own right.

This is talking about abusing the AI in general, not the way in which forces scale, and therefore not really relevant. Everyone knows there are ways to beat the AI.
 
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Pro_Consul

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I think you misunderstand the discussion. This is how land forces can attempt to maintain 1:1 parity. i.e., at (absolute) best 2x as many units would have 2x as much fighting power. The point isn't that Land units can't scale with size, but that they can only scale at 1:1 at best, while air forces work quite differently. If you have 2x as much air force AND you can fly 5x as many sorties because the enemy can't fight back, you now have 10x the strength for 2x the cost.

I understand that quite well. What you seem to be misunderstanding is that the exact analogy can extend beyond air power. If you have 2x as many submarines as Germany, you can likely sink 10x as many convoys, because you can spread your forces more widely beyond the enemy's ability to cover them and can keep more units on station while still others repair in port. If you have 2x as many divisions, you can execute CONSTANT attacks, because you can cycle units on and off the front as they again and lose org; you can expand the front beyond the enemy's ability to cover it all, etc.

In short, the basic truth I said is 100% true: there are force multiplication methods for land and sea warfare, too, not just for air warfare. And that is really what all of your description boils down to, i.e. leveraging larger numbers of units in order to overcome time and org constraints as a force multiplier. That is what force multipliers are, ways to leverage different methods and/or means to achieve gains that exceed the amount of investment required to achieve them, i.e. to effectively multiply the loaves and fishes.
 

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I'm a HUGE fan of Armoured Cars

I use this with most nations I play these days, but it's really helpful when playing leadership starved nations, or a nation that I want to spend most of my research somewhere besides land. I'll end up with only 2 Division types:
Larm/Mot/Mot/AC
and
Inf/Inf/Inf/AC

Add some light militia research/production for port defense/partisan hunting, and Spec ops if needed (marines/paratroopers/mountaineers). Thats it!

Benefits:
Research Synergy: Inf/Larm/AC have a lot of research synergy, which let's you spend more of your leadership elsewhere.
Low Cost Production: These divisions are cheap and easy to mass produce.
Practical Knowledge: AC/Mot/Mec all use the Mobile Unit Practical, which reduces production times on these divisions (and applicable research items as well)
Armor Bonus: Current level AC tech will give you an Armor bonus vs Specialist & lower tech infantry (minor nations, sometimes even vanilla Russian inf divisions (1942+ vs ai)).
Hard stats: Since most of your received damage will be soft attack, the added hard stats will reduce total casualties, and help you maintain your manpower reserve.
Low Fuel costs: Practically all your divisions will use fuel, but you would be surprised how little fuel they end up using. (arm uses 4.114 fuel. Larm uses 2.875. AC uses .456)
Mobility/Exploitation: You have the mobility from fast exploitation units and a speed boost on your infantry divisions. Encircle, with the Larm divisions, and fill your lines with the Inf Divisions.
Room to Improve: floating tons of extra leadership? Tech other areas of interest, tech ahead with Inf/Larm/AC, or even unlock Mechanized and upgrade a few divisions (Mechanized is expensive to produce, even as an upgrade, and costly to fuel)

For example, using this as Germany, I adjust my entire army to be either Larm/Mot/Mot/AC, Inf/Inf/Inf/AC, or Mil/Mil/Mil, then Blitzkrieg EVERYTHING. The lower cost and quicker production speed of these units allows me to field more divisions then I previously would have as well. Using/researching just these things lets me spend plenty of research and production time on air power (or naval if you would like).

I use this approach whenever I play as the UK, Germany, Italy, Russia, and Japan.

....

For Cavalry, I only use it as Russia (in far east Asia), China (which is far east Asia), and Japan (as a mobile unit in far east Asia)

Rocket tech is cheaper to produce then arty, but has a higher supply upkeep. Arty has better defensive stats, Rocket arty has better offensive stats. It does ease your research into other rocket related tech as well. Overall, you're better going with normal arty most of the time regardless.
 

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I'm a HUGE fan of Armoured Cars

I use this with most nations I play these days, but it's really helpful when playing leadership starved nations, or a nation that I want to spend most of my research somewhere besides land. I'll end up with only 2 Division types:
Larm/Mot/Mot/AC
and
Inf/Inf/Inf/AC

Add some light militia research/production for port defense/partisan hunting, and Spec ops if needed (marines/paratroopers/mountaineers). Thats it!

Benefits:
Research Synergy: Inf/Larm/AC have a lot of research synergy, which let's you spend more of your leadership elsewhere.
Low Cost Production: These divisions are cheap and easy to mass produce.
Practical Knowledge: AC/Mot/Mec all use the Mobile Unit Practical, which reduces production times on these divisions (and applicable research items as well)
Armor Bonus: Current level AC tech will give you an Armor bonus vs Specialist & lower tech infantry (minor nations, sometimes even vanilla Russian inf divisions (1942+ vs ai)).
Hard stats: Since most of your received damage will be soft attack, the added hard stats will reduce total casualties, and help you maintain your manpower reserve.
Low Fuel costs: Practically all your divisions will use fuel, but you would be surprised how little fuel they end up using. (arm uses 4.114 fuel. Larm uses 2.875. AC uses .456)
Mobility/Exploitation: You have the mobility from fast exploitation units and a speed boost on your infantry divisions. Encircle, with the Larm divisions, and fill your lines with the Inf Divisions.
Room to Improve: floating tons of extra leadership? Tech other areas of interest, tech ahead with Inf/Larm/AC, or even unlock Mechanized and upgrade a few divisions (Mechanized is expensive to produce, even as an upgrade, and costly to fuel)

For example, using this as Germany, I adjust my entire army to be either Larm/Mot/Mot/AC, Inf/Inf/Inf/AC, or Mil/Mil/Mil, then Blitzkrieg EVERYTHING. The lower cost and quicker production speed of these units allows me to field more divisions then I previously would have as well. Using/researching just these things lets me spend plenty of research and production time on air power (or naval if you would like).

I use this approach whenever I play as the UK, Germany, Italy, Russia, and Japan.

....

For Cavalry, I only use it as Russia (in far east Asia), China (which is far east Asia), and Japan (as a mobile unit in far east Asia)

Rocket tech is cheaper to produce then arty, but has a higher supply upkeep. Arty has better defensive stats, Rocket arty has better offensive stats. It does ease your research into other rocket related tech as well. Overall, you're better going with normal arty most of the time regardless.


I am all for ACs. Though I am less convinced that mixing them with regular Inf is always a good idea. By adding ACs to Inf you add a fuel demand which means you will, in a manner of speaking, double the chance that the division will be immobilized due to lack of either supply or fuel.
 

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I am all for ACs. Though I am less convinced that mixing them with regular Inf is always a good idea. By adding ACs to Inf you add a fuel demand which means you will, in a manner of speaking, double the chance that the division will be immobilized due to lack of either supply or fuel.

I tend to feel that infantry divisions need something else other than AC anyway.

In a 4 brigade setup, I really don't have the room for an AC, because I want ART (and maybe AT if I'm rolling with an immunized theater setup). If I switch to Superior Firepower, I still want more ART. Blasting enemy line divisions with ART is vitally important in my book in all but the most rugged of terrain or lousy of supply situations.

INF divisions benefit from having more firepower than their opponents in most cases, I feel. That precludes an AC brigade for them, since the AC won't lower their softness enough to make a difference. (If I'm optimizing INF divisions for softness, I shouldn't be using INF in the first place.)
 

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I tend to feel that infantry divisions need something else other than AC anyway.

In a 4 brigade setup, I really don't have the room for an AC, because I want ART (and maybe AT if I'm rolling with an immunized theater setup). If I switch to Superior Firepower, I still want more ART. Blasting enemy line divisions with ART is vitally important in my book in all but the most rugged of terrain or lousy of supply situations.

INF divisions benefit from having more firepower than their opponents in most cases, I feel. That precludes an AC brigade for them, since the AC won't lower their softness enough to make a difference. (If I'm optimizing INF divisions for softness, I shouldn't be using INF in the first place.)

Yes, I also feel that in the contest between SPAT and AC the latter gets a big plus for general cost effectivness. AC vs. regular Art just dont offer quite as attractive a tradeoff.