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Secret Master

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I decided to provide a proof of concept by running the Soviets last night.

Question: Can air power decisively defeat armor, and do so without using stacks of 30 TACs to shatter enemy formations?

Answer: Yes.

HoI3_237_zps52c56f48.jpg


Methodology: I built the Red Army with no armor, no AT, no TD, no INF, and no fuel consuming units of any kind. Divisions on the front lines in Poland/Baltic/Odessa would consist entirely of MIL/MIL/ART/ART divisions. These slow divisions lack any kind of anti-tank firepower, and are so slow as to be vulnerable to overruns if they lose their defensive positions.

Scandinavia and the Far East got MTN divisions, per my usual SOP. I built a corps of PARA and 3 TRA to assist in forcing minors to surrender quickly.

The Soviet Air force would be composed of some INT, but mostly MR and TACs.

HoI3_238_zps2e409e69.jpg


HoI3_239_zps05e9a45f.jpg


I intended to reach Great Air Force by the time hostilities commenced, but I overbuilt divisions in 1940, causing me not to hit Great Air Force until November of 41.

Given a lack of Soviet mobile forces of any kind, static defense and defense in depth are the only options available to the Red Army. The heartland of the Soviet Union must be protected; however, several major rivers and the Pripet Marshes lie between the Heer and the Soviet industrial base. I used my standard static defense pattern: holding the river lines and marshes on the old border between Poland and the Soviet Union. While there is some open terrain, it is largely river, forest, and swamp. Poland, and part of the Baltic, would be given up without a fight. I built several new airbases in range of the chosen defensive line.

The plan is simple. MIL/ART divisions will hold the line using both terrain and superior numbers to stonewall the German advance. An entire corps will hold each province on the border; there are also a number of "reserve" corps that can be placed into combat the moment the German schwerepunkt is detected using strategic redeployment (remember, MIL moves at 3 kph on its own, and the terrain sucks, so they need to move by rail when possible). Large Front and Human Wave doctrines will ensure that even in a single province/single axis battle, I can put up to 10 divisions into combat without incurring width or stacking penalty problems (I'll take a 22% stacking penalty if it means I can add another 10 brigades of ART to the combat.)

All INTs and MRs will lock down the front using air superiority missions until Luftwaffe resistance ceases. When Luftwaffe resistance ceases, 50-75% of the MRs will switch to ground attack until Luftwaffe resistance increases again. (It happens; the AI will lick its wounds and then contest the sky once more.)

Air forces will not perform any of the following missions: logistics bombing, strategic bombing, port strikes, naval strikes, runway cratering, or interdiction. PARA will only be used to seize objectives, not to create or complete encirclements.

Target priority for ground attack is as follows: the schwerepunkt, any visible armor divisions or WSS divisions, smaller battles, and finally forces in retreat.

Covert ops will not be used on the front lines to slow enemy attacks. Let the panzers come at me in all their glory.

Results:

Well, it's December of 41, and we have already pushed out from our defensive positions along the river line. I'm about to use PARA to finish off Romania by seizing her capital (her army is routed). The Hungarians are fighting better, but they are facing collapse in the near future. The Germans are not fleeing, but they are in retreat in several sectors. The key here is that their armor has not gotten a respite from bombing since the war started. So, even though my MIL divisions have absolutely no counter to German armor, it makes no difference if German armor has no ORG left from constant bombing.

Players should keep in mind that you don't have to fight the whole Luftwaffe anyway. A significant portion is committed to defending Germany from strategic attack. So, 75+ Soviet wings gives you plenty of firepower. The transition from air superiority to ground attack sped up the collapse of the Axis minors, but even the Germans are feeling the pinch.

Note that intelligence has confirmed at least 4 HARM divisions on the front (there's another one wandering around Sweden somewhere). They have contributed very little to the fighting because they never get to replenish ORG. Also, since even LARM could get the lack-of-penetration bonus against my MIL, the HARM is wasted. It would have been better to just build ARM or LARM and spend the extra IC on planes.

Thoughts:

You have to keep in mind that the entire military strength of the nation fights together. This means that you need to counter enemy advantages, but you can counter them using any part of the nation's military. Once you know that airpower always penetrates armor on armored divisions, bombers can become part of your counter to enemy armor. You can also 'immunize' the front with mass production of AT, or use counter-armor armored divisions (ARM/MOT/TD/TD/TD) to specifically defeat enemy armor. Each choice carries consequences, but as long as you plan ahead, there is no problem. The point is to have some kind of counter to enemy armor; it doesn't matter if that counter is a guy on foot with a TOW, a Huey with Hellfire, a howitzer with Copperhead rounds, an A-10 looking for tanks, naval gunfire from a battleship, a B-52 doing an ARCLIGHT strike...... (the list goes on to 1537 items, so just roll with me here). It only matters that you CAN defeat the enemy armor.
 

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But that's all bunk because it would never work in MP! :p



Oh, sorry. My bad. I was overcome and forced to channel someone else's spirit for a moment there.
 

Kagernaut

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But that's all bunk because it would never work in MP! :p



Oh, sorry. My bad. I was overcome and forced to channel someone else's spirit for a moment there.

Its true though. I was going to say something along those lines, and then i remembered that this is the singleplayer forum. So, I didnt bother.
 

Secret Master

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Its true though. I was going to say something along those lines, and then i remembered that this is the singleplayer forum. So, I didnt bother.

So, people in your MP games aren't building as many wings as they can?

And if someone builds a grossly insufficient number, you can't absolutely spank them with bombers? Unless you are playing with odd house rules, I find that hard to believe.

It's also just a proof of concept. Someone claims that aircraft can't stop German armor, so I demonstrate that it is possible, assuming a sufficient number of bombers and air superiority. Using units with the absolute worst penetration ratings is just to ensure that no matter what kinds of armored forces they throw at me, I am fighting at a disadvantage. That's the same reason I'm using MIL; they are so slow that they should get overrun even by mediocre armored forces. The army OOB I built for this demonstration is not optimized for fighting armor. It's not some kind of bragging thing where I talk about how awesome I am for using MIL divisions to smack the Germans around. It's the AI, so there's no bragging involved. It's all about optimizing the experiment as best I can without running side-by-side MP with specific battles and carefully recording bomber effects. (I don't have time for that now.) Also, with no Soviet armored forces at all, it will take 20 hours of gaming to reach Berlin thanks to the ridiculously slow pace of those crappy divisions, so it would be the most boring victory in WWII of all time (except that one time I used MIL/TD divisions to demonstrate how you could abuse the CA bonus in FTM).

If your reply is something like, "But I would never allow the Soviets to gain that much air superiority over me and bomb me that much in MP," then you only reinforce my point indirectly. Bombers, even at 1941 techs, are deadly to armor. Try it with 1944 techs and bombs from the secret tab. They get absurdly deadly. Even if you say, "But in my MP games, we start the war in 1937 and it ends before 1941," that does not negate anything I have demonstrated here.

Rather than just invoking MP in an attempt to demonstrate superiority over me as a player (which doesn't make any sense, given my repeated comments over the past 5 years that I'm not as good at the game as others), it might have been a better idea to address the issue you and others brought up. You should have asked me is this: "Hey SM, so you showed me that you can stop armored offensives with bombers. Was that more or less IC and leadership efficient than just immunizing the front with AT brigades? And are you abusing the AI's logic by defending a wider front on crappy terrain? Shouldn't you try this in open terrain near the border?"

Even though you didn't, I'll answer them anyway:

1) AT brigade immunization on an entire front is cheaper than building excessive aircraft, but it lowers division firepower. Immunizing the front with AT is safer than choosing the aircraft approach, but you have to accept the consequences of such a build scheme. On the other hand, aircraft are potent regardless of the armor issue, so you can't really go wrong with a significantly larger air force than your enemy.

2) Defending the longer front along the rivers and near the Pripet Marshes does game the AI a little bit, but it's also an issue with humans. The more the front spreads out, the fewer advantages the Germans enjoy against the Soviets. Longer front = need for more divisions and more difficulty in running encirclements.

3) Repeating the experiment on the border and in open terrain in Poland wouldn't meet the requirements of the experiment. We both agreed that it does take time to wear down armor with aircraft. It's an approach that requires defending in depth; this more or less precludes digging in on the border and fighting right there on the border.
 
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JoeRambo

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230 divisions of 2MIL + 2xART is a force that alone is capable of defeating anything GER AI can throw. The math is pretty much simple, 20 ART bdes per province have ridiculous firepower and ORG pool, 50% reduction from non penetration is not changing anything. So if commie player is competent enough to use terrain and can manage frontages/reinforcements, land war is pretty much covered against AI.
 

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Something to be said for using this in a MP game, is that the UK should be conducting a very intensive air offensive against Germany, tieing up Luftwaffe resources there.
 

feye1

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Something to be said for using this in a MP game, is that the UK should be conducting a very intensive air offensive against Germany, tieing up Luftwaffe resources there.

True true, I can imagine UK building a few more Strategic Bombers to bomb the IC of Germany. Germany has to keep a fair amount of INT in Germany then. Also UK bombers (TAC/CAS) should bomb German troops in France, Belgium and The Netherlands, which means German INT have to protect even larger territory. Would be a fun game with Russia if you beat a human Germany with MIL + ART only :)
 

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230 divisions of 2MIL + 2xART is a force that alone is capable of defeating anything GER AI can throw. The math is pretty much simple, 20 ART bdes per province have ridiculous firepower and ORG pool, 50% reduction from non penetration is not changing anything. So if commie player is competent enough to use terrain and can manage frontages/reinforcements, land war is pretty much covered against AI.

You want me to run it with plain stacks of 4xMIL? In random places that do not depend on rivers and swamps to reduce enemy mobility?

I'm asking because it sounds like you you are arguing that with enough ART on the Eastern Front, good terrain, and a decent OOB, you don't need anything else to stop German armor against the AI. Is that what you are claiming?

Do really need to rerun the experiment in side-by-side MP with controlled battles between 10 different division compositions, both with and without aircraft, to demonstrate my point?

EDIT:

Yes, it's easier for the Soviets if the Allies tie up more of the Luftwaffe, but that gets into the whole "Are STR bombers overpowered?" debate.

As for defeating the Germans with MIL/ART, it's not any fun. There's no grace or tactical thinking involved in pushing entire corps around, province to province, just bludgeoning the Wermacht to death.

Trust me, it's more fun to use armored forces and get some style in your game.
 

JoeRambo

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I'm asking because it sounds like you you are arguing that with enough ART on the Eastern Front, good terrain, and a decent OOB, you don't need anything else to stop German armor against the AI. Is that what you are claiming?
Do really need to rerun the experiment in side-by-side MP with controlled battles between 10 different division compositions, both with and without aircraft, to demonstrate my point?

Using land forces that are too strong, creates conditions that favor air force too much. No one is doubting the power of air force, or the power of doomstacks. But once the claim moves to "non gamey application of TAC and MR", you need equally non gamey conditions on the land. Sitting there with "unfun", but potent land force and pounding GER forces 24/7 at your place of choosing, is not the same as having to deal with multiple crisis along the front.

Extreme example of my point is testing logistical bombing, in Central Europe, 3 provs away from Berlin and doing same test near Urals, when GER is on the last ropes.
 

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As for defeating the Germans with MIL/ART, it's not any fun. There's no grace or tactical thinking involved in pushing entire corps around, province to province, just bludgeoning the Wermacht to death.

Trust me, it's more fun to use armored forces and get some style in your game.

Well for one time against a human it's fun. Overall it sucks, especially against the AI.
 

Kagernaut

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So, people in your MP games aren't building as many wings as they can?

And if someone builds a grossly insufficient number, you can't absolutely spank them with bombers? Unless you are playing with odd house rules, I find that hard to believe.

It's also just a proof of concept. Someone claims that aircraft can't stop German armor, so I demonstrate that it is possible, assuming a sufficient number of bombers and air superiority. Using units with the absolute worst penetration ratings is just to ensure that no matter what kinds of armored forces they throw at me, I am fighting at a disadvantage. That's the same reason I'm using MIL; they are so slow that they should get overrun even by mediocre armored forces. The army OOB I built for this demonstration is not optimized for fighting armor. It's not some kind of bragging thing where I talk about how awesome I am for using MIL divisions to smack the Germans around. It's the AI, so there's no bragging involved. It's all about optimizing the experiment as best I can without running side-by-side MP with specific battles and carefully recording bomber effects. (I don't have time for that now.) Also, with no Soviet armored forces at all, it will take 20 hours of gaming to reach Berlin thanks to the ridiculously slow pace of those crappy divisions, so it would be the most boring victory in WWII of all time (except that one time I used MIL/TD divisions to demonstrate how you could abuse the CA bonus in FTM).

If your reply is something like, "But I would never allow the Soviets to gain that much air superiority over me and bomb me that much in MP," then you only reinforce my point indirectly. Bombers, even at 1941 techs, are deadly to armor. Try it with 1944 techs and bombs from the secret tab. They get absurdly deadly. Even if you say, "But in my MP games, we start the war in 1937 and it ends before 1941," that does not negate anything I have demonstrated here.

Rather than just invoking MP in an attempt to demonstrate superiority over me as a player (which doesn't make any sense, given my repeated comments over the past 5 years that I'm not as good at the game as others), it might have been a better idea to address the issue you and others brought up. You should have asked me is this: "Hey SM, so you showed me that you can stop armored offensives with bombers. Was that more or less IC and leadership efficient than just immunizing the front with AT brigades? And are you abusing the AI's logic by defending a wider front on crappy terrain? Shouldn't you try this in open terrain near the border?"

Even though you didn't, I'll answer them anyway:

1) AT brigade immunization on an entire front is cheaper than building excessive aircraft, but it lowers division firepower. Immunizing the front with AT is safer than choosing the aircraft approach, but you have to accept the consequences of such a build scheme. On the other hand, aircraft are potent regardless of the armor issue, so you can't really go wrong with a significantly larger air force than your enemy.

2) Defending the longer front along the rivers and near the Pripet Marshes does game the AI a little bit, but it's also an issue with humans. The more the front spreads out, the fewer advantages the Germans enjoy against the Soviets. Longer front = need for more divisions and more difficulty in running encirclements.

3) Repeating the experiment on the border and in open terrain in Poland wouldn't meet the requirements of the experiment. We both agreed that it does take time to wear down armor with aircraft. It's an approach that requires defending in depth; this more or less precludes digging in on the border and fighting right there on the border.

SM, I would never just say "I play MP and thus am better". I merely forgot that you guys don't play with MP Rules---which, whenever I play SP, I stay to our groups rules.

Most groups have limits and caps on the number of planes used in a single attack, since the stacking limit is now capped at 80%. It makes sense, since a human could very easily abuse someting with a 30 TAC stack. In our group, we have a stacking limit of 20 planes, I typicaly see limits between 20-30 in other MP groups.
Also, the AI isn't competent enough to have sufficient interceptors in the area, whereas a human would counter a stack of 30 TACS with 40 INTS---and that would probably be the last or second to last run that TAC Stack made for a while.

With such limits (and better intelligence of a player VS AI), those tactics aren't very viable in an MP game. If you built a stack of 20 TACs and unleased it on your opponent, you better hope that you don't have him engaged on the ground and that he hasn't built more than 10 interceptors, because otherwise you'll be spending lots of IC to repair them, and lots of time without doing much damage.

Anyway, since we are talking strategy and tactics, and all my knowledge of such these days is for playing against humans within a set of house rules, I extracted myself from this conversation since I'm not qualified to comment, or so I realized.
 

Secret Master

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Most groups have limits and caps on the number of planes used in a single attack, since the stacking limit is now capped at 80%. It makes sense, since a human could very easily abuse someting with a 30 TAC stack. In our group, we have a stacking limit of 20 planes, I typicaly see limits between 20-30 in other MP groups.

I thought I was clear that I wasn't using megastacks of planes. I said I wasn't using 30 TACs in a single attack for this particular experiment.

Now, if I told you every stack was 3 wings, and they all ran separate missions with little or no overlap, does this change your perception of the activity in question?

Using land forces that are too strong, creates conditions that favor air force too much. No one is doubting the power of air force, or the power of doomstacks. But once the claim moves to "non gamey application of TAC and MR", you need equally non gamey conditions on the land. Sitting there with "unfun", but potent land force and pounding GER forces 24/7 at your place of choosing, is not the same as having to deal with multiple crisis along the front.

Well, I gotta spend the IC somewhere. You save a ton by not having any tanks.

If I ran the experiment again, what parameters would you suggest? Division composition and so on.
 

Jamey

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I really need to look at CGM next time I'm at my gaming computer. The info on the wiki seems to indicate that ARM/MOT/AC/AC vs. ARM/MOT/SPART/TD consumes 80% of the supply and 70% of the fuel. That would indicate that you can field 25% more armored divisions for slightly less fuel supply capacity.

It also (I think) has a slightly higher SA, similar Defensiveness, higher Toughness, and the same Softness. It has better mobility (especially in open terrain). This is all in addition to being around 75% of the IC cost.

On the downside, it has massively lower HA and slightly higher MP cost.

I'm repeating myself here some, but this is quite the revelation to me.

I've always mixed in some AC in place of SPART (and especially in LARM divisions for exploitation). Overall, I think that I'll go with AC for my standard ARM deployment. The upsides are bigger than the downsides to me.
 

Sweynforkbeard

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I really need to look at CGM next time I'm at my gaming computer. The info on the wiki seems to indicate that ARM/MOT/AC/AC vs. ARM/MOT/SPART/TD consumes 80% of the supply and 70% of the fuel. That would indicate that you can field 25% more armored divisions for slightly less fuel supply capacity.

It also (I think) has a slightly higher SA, similar Defensiveness, higher Toughness, and the same Softness. It has better mobility (especially in open terrain). This is all in addition to being around 75% of the IC cost.

On the downside, it has massively lower HA and slightly higher MP cost.

I'm repeating myself here some, but this is quite the revelation to me.

I've always mixed in some AC in place of SPART (and especially in LARM divisions for exploitation). Overall, I think that I'll go with AC for my standard ARM deployment. The upsides are bigger than the downsides to me.

Ahh, what can I say. Welcome to the AC spam club. I will give you one other good reason why it works well. You will only use two types of practicals for that type of division which will allow you to reach high levels of practicals faster.
 

Less

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I decided to provide a proof of concept by running the Soviets last night.

Question: Can air power decisively defeat armor, and do so without using stacks of 30 TACs to shatter enemy formations?

Answer: Yes.

While it's true you've proven that a heavy focus on Air Power can defeat the AI, I'd say that the main reason for that is that a heavy focus on anything tends to beat the AI. The AI tends to build as a generalist and won't alter their production priorities to match your own lopsided investment. Whether you are investing in a huge air force, hundreds of super-fast exploitation divisions, or a complete steel wall of HARM, the AI will never specialize to match your threat and will lose rather spectacularly.
 

corazhor

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While it's true you've proven that a heavy focus on Air Power can defeat the AI, I'd say that the main reason for that is that a heavy focus on anything tends to beat the AI. The AI tends to build as a generalist and won't alter their production priorities to match your own lopsided investment. Whether you are investing in a huge air force, hundreds of super-fast exploitation divisions, or a complete steel wall of HARM, the AI will never specialize to match your threat and will lose rather spectacularly.

The idea was to test 'can airpower counter armored divisions', and the test results say 'yes, they definitely can'. The most telling point to me isn't 'he won the war', its 'the armor never penetrated the defensive line and could never recover its ORG enough to make a viable attack'. Yes this would require ALOT of micromanaging your airforce in MP, and it has downsides as SM has already pointed (cost, riskiness, etc). But it is 100% possible to counter armor with airplanes.
 

Secret Master

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While it's true you've proven that a heavy focus on Air Power can defeat the AI, I'd say that the main reason for that is that a heavy focus on anything tends to beat the AI. The AI tends to build as a generalist and won't alter their production priorities to match your own lopsided investment. Whether you are investing in a huge air force, hundreds of super-fast exploitation divisions, or a complete steel wall of HARM, the AI will never specialize to match your threat and will lose rather spectacularly.

The idea was to test 'can airpower counter armored divisions', and the test results say 'yes, they definitely can'. The most telling point to me isn't 'he won the war', its 'the armor never penetrated the defensive line and could never recover its ORG enough to make a viable attack'.

Pretty much what I thought I was going for.

The entire point of the exercise is to demonstrate that, while the lack of penetration bonus is potent, there's nothing armored divisions can do once they get bombed into submission.

If I had the time, I'd run some side-by-side MP and set up specific battles in specific places to illustrate it clearly.

Now, if you think that MIL/ART on defensive terrain is too powerful on its own to make the experiment meaningful, then suggest a division composition I can use and some other parameters. I will warn you, however, that like everything else in HOI3, division composition-production-air force-techs are all intrinsically linked. If I'm saving IC and leadership by not building a single armored division or AT brigade or TD brigade, that IC has to go somewhere. And I'm not going to base 40 wings of aircraft in the Far East to sit and twiddle their thumbs just to soak up IC.
 

Less

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Nah, I'm not disputing that your line was overpowered or something. I'm talking about the AI simply not knowing how to fight your air force.

If your enemy can run TACs (or CASs, or MRs, or STRs) 24/7 over your lines, you are screwed. Period. The AI doesn't realize this and build more air force or AA, and it dies.

I'd hesitate to use the word "exploit" since that has negative connotations, but under normal circumstances TACs shouldn't be flying uncontested. If they are contested, their power is reduced massively whenever they need to spend a week grounded for repair.
 
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BattleMoose

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Nah, I'm not disputing that your line was overpowered or something. I'm talking about the AI simply not knowing how to fight your air force.

If your enemy can run TACs (or CASs, or MRs, or STRs) 24/7 over your lines, you are screwed. Period. The AI doesn't realize this and build more air force or AA, and it dies.

I'd hesitate to use the word "exploit" since that has negative connotations, but under normal circumstances TACs shouldn't be flying uncontested. If they are contested, their power is reduced massively whenever they need to spend a week grounded for repair.

If the Soviets are defending around Smolensk and Vitybesk, they have ample airfields where there is a huge deficiency for the invading enemy. Gives the air offensive a very large advantage if your enemy doesn't have airfields.

Especially if you build more airfields in that area.