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ForVictory

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If a province i want to defend has 80% plains, with what units is it best to defend it, cavalry, infantry or mix?
What about attacking a province with mostly plains or forests?

And not sure if this is a bug but i was in a province with a river in it and when the enemy attacked me there i didnt see any rivercrossing -2 penalty!?
 

ForVictory

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Well here it is, i got attacked from Périgord

EU3_1-1.jpg
 

GAGA Extrem

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Terrain is always randomed, about rivers: dunno.

In general CAV is a very good defensive unit. It will suffer heavily on attack (modifiers have been changed from -1 to -4 and -2 to -5, doubled for CAV iirc).

In general I would recommend pure CAV for the first 50 years and then start mixing with INF. I have yet to reach Landsknechts, but even at LT 8 CAV takes serious punishment when used offensive in difficult terrain...
 

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Well, the city is on their side of the river ;)

As far as I know the river bonus is random, just like which of the terrain types in the province the battle is fought on.
 

ForVictory

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Terrain is always randomed, about rivers: dunno.

In general CAV is a very good defensive unit. It will suffer heavily on attack (modifiers have been changed from -1 to -4 and -2 to -5, doubled for CAV iirc).

In general I would recommend pure CAV for the first 50 years and then start mixing with INF. I have yet to reach Landsknechts, but even at LT 8 CAV takes serious punishment when used offensive in difficult terrain...

This doesnt make sense, its not like the river isnt there sometimes!
And isnt CAV supposed to be good at attacking and INF at defending, or did i mix that up?! :confused:
 

King Nothing

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This doesnt make sense, its not like the river isnt there sometimes!
And isnt CAV supposed to be good at attacking and INF at defending, or did i mix that up?! :confused:

But the river isn't everywhere in the province. Sometimes the battle is on the plain before you reach the river..

I think it would have been a good idea if you had stated that you were playing HttT. It's a very different battle system after the upgrade. I don't have HttT myself but since the no-morale-wipeout now exists pretty much all that matters is probably morale... That means all infantry except for 2 cav units for flanking. In every battle no matter the terrain and no matter what you are trying to do, that is probably the best composition of the army..
 

ForVictory

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But the river isn't everywhere in the province. Sometimes the battle is on the plain before you reach the river..

I think it would have been a good idea if you had stated that you were playing HttT. It's a very different battle system after the upgrade. I don't have HttT myself but since the no-morale-wipeout now exists pretty much all that matters is probably morale... That means all infantry except for 2 cav units for flanking. In every battle no matter the terrain and no matter what you are trying to do, that is probably the best composition of the army..

But as a defender i would get the to choose where to fight, so the river penalty for attacker should always be in and not randomized!
Im playing HTTT but it was the same in IN, the river penalties wouldnt be in sometimes, maybe its the compostion of my army? If i have more cav or infan the attacker wont get penalties?
Anyone know?
 

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I don't have HttT myself but since the no-morale-wipeout now exists pretty much all that matters is probably morale
Are you saying that if you loose a battle becouse your morale is to low, it now extinguish your whole army? That sounds rather stupid.

I'm sure I must have misunderstod your statement here though.
 

ForVictory

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Are you saying that if you loose a battle becouse your morale is to low, it now extinguish your whole army? That sounds rather stupid.

I'm sure I must have misunderstod your statement here though.

Not 100%, if ur army gets defeated and gets defeated 2nd time again within the same month, then it will be totally annihilated and since the AI will always try to chase u it does happen alot.
 

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This doesnt make sense, its not like the river isnt there sometimes!
Yes, but you could argue that the battle sometimes could take place in a part of the province where the river isn't important. Again, I have no idea why there is no river penalty, sorry.

And isnt CAV supposed to be good at attacking and INF at defending, or did i mix that up?! :confused:
Yep, it was that way before HTTT. But now CAV is only good for attacking in open terrain, since the penatlies have been intensified: woods and forests is -2, marsh -3, hills -4 and mountain -5 - and all doubled for CAV.

So, while your CAV sits in a mountain province and defends, your enemy gets a -5 dice roll modifier, while you fight at 100% efficency. Since CAV has roughly twice the shock modifier of INF, 1 CAV is worth 2 INF in this situation.

Conclusion: During the early game, CAV is good for attacking and defending in plains, farm, woods and forests, plus defending in difficult terrain when you won't have to counter-attack. INF is only best for attacking difficult terrain (marsh, hills, mountains).
Later (around 1550+), you might want to switch to an INF-heavy buildup with 2-4 CAV for flanking.

Are you saying that if you loose a battle becouse your morale is to low, it now extinguish your whole army? That sounds rather stupid.
It's a the "overrun" rule: If the enemy wins a morale victory within the first 12 days and has twice as much units left as you, your whole army will be annihiliated.

[...]now exists pretty much all that matters is probably morale... That means all infantry except for 2 cav units for flanking.
Not quite, during the early game, CAV deals more shock losses and thus more morale damage during the shock phase. Once landsknecht INF and decent firearms come available, you should switch to an 8 INF 2 CAV like buildup, once ART gets decent fire values 50% INF + 50% ART + 2-4 CAV should be a good combined arms stack.
 

King Nothing

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Yep, it was that way before HTTT. But now CAV is only good for attacking in open terrain, since the penatlies have been intensified: woods and forests is -2, marsh -3, hills -4 and mountain -5 - and all doubled for CAV.

So, while your CAV sits in a mountain province and defends, your enemy gets a -5 dice roll modifier, while you fight at 100% efficency. Since CAV has roughly twice the shock modifier of INF, 1 CAV is worth 2 INF in this situation.

Conclusion: During the early game, CAV is good for attacking and defending in plains, farm, woods and forests, plus defending in difficult terrain when you won't have to counter-attack. INF is only best for attacking difficult terrain (marsh, hills, mountains).
Inf or cav doesn't matter when defending? Just making sure I understand this.. And those attacking penalties are rough for cav. As they should be. :)

Not quite, during the early game, CAV deals more shock losses and thus more morale damage during the shock phase. Once landsknecht INF and decent firearms come available, you should switch to an 8 INF 2 CAV like buildup, once ART gets decent fire values 50% INF + 50% ART + 2-4 CAV should be a good combined arms stack.
Not already at Men at arms? They have twice as much offensive and defensive morale as the cavalry, will the higher shock "win" over that?
And why 2-4 cav units? Is there a reason to have more than 2?
 

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Inf or cav doesn't matter when defending? Just making sure I understand this.. And those attacking penalties are rough for cav. As they should be. :)
The defender gets no (visible) modifiers regarding the units he uses. So, yes, there is absolutly no reason not to use CAV on defence.
Could be that there is a modifier hidden (like terrain also boosting defence roll for defender), but even if it is there - it is not signifiacnt.

Not already at Men at arms? They have twice as much offensive and defensive morale as the cavalry, will the higher shock "win" over that?
And why 2-4 cav units? Is there a reason to have more than 2?
This is a common misinterpretation.
The "dots" from unit types are the least important factor that influence combat. At most they would increase your dice roll by +1. On the other hand, if you take a look at the shock modifiers, INF will have something around 0.45 during the early game, while CAV has 0.9. This modifier is used for the very final combat resolution, so basicly CAV deals (roughly) twice the shock damage of INF. On the other hand, the fire value for INF during the early game is 0.05, so your INF will only have 5% effective combat power during the fire phase for this timeframe. Or short: Fire is useless until the modifier goes up to (at least) 0.25, better 0.5.

This effect decreases over time as INF gets better, but it takes up to LT 12 until you will notice the INF model and fire advantage. Landsknecht INF has enough defensive morale to withstand CAV and win morale wise. They will still take much higher casualties and deliever less damage to the enemy, though.
However, CAV will get a higher and higher shock modifier, ending up with something like 1.2 INF vs. 4.0 CAV. In IN, where shock came before fire this meant that a CAV charge around 1600 would be devestating if you rolled a high number, because CAV dealt almost quadrouple shock damage compared to INF. To make things worse, a high shock general boosted that value even more, leading to increadible losses on enemy side, sometimes almost annhilating a 2:1 superiour INF force within the first 5 days of combat...

In addition, CAV was faster than INF, so you could basicly run in front of a retreating army and force it to attack you in their retreat destination, giving THEM the terrain modifiers. This was probably the biggest thing about CAV.

However, all of this is fixed in HTTT - fire comes (once again) first, so INF does much, much better against CAV, esp. during the later game. CAV speed has been reduced to INF speed, so no more outracing retreating stacks.

Why use more than 2 CAV? Well, because sometimes the order of battle changes - reinforcements, breaking units, etc. With 4 CAV instead of 2 CAV, two units will remain as a reserve after a battle, so you can still flank during the next combat, even if the other 2 regiments get beaten up. But it's more like a luxury.
 
Last edited:

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The defender gets no (visible) modifiers regarding the units he uses. So, yes, there is absolutly no reason not to use CAV on defence.
Could be that there is a modifier hidden (like terrain also boosting defence roll for defender), but even if it is there - it is not signifiacnt.


This is a common misinterpretation. The "dots" from unit types are the least important factor that influence combat. At most they would increase your dice roll by +1. On the other hand, if you take a look at the shock modifiers, INF will have something around 0.45 during the early game, while CAV has 0.9. This modifier is used for the very final combat resolution, so basicly CAV deals (roughly) twice the shock damage of INF.

This effect decreases over time as INF gets better, but it takes up to LT 12 until you will notice the INF model and fire advantage. Landsknecht INF has enough defensive morale to withstand CAV and win morale wise. They will still take much higher casualties and deliever less damage to the enemy, though.

Even with the new battle tactics bonus for large infantry?
 

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But as a defender i would get the to choose where to fight, so the river penalty for attacker should always be in and not randomized!

Not neccesarily. Maybe the attacker crossed the river where (and when) you didn't expect, and so it is on the same side. Or your general was sow and didn't retreated to the other side, so it was caught in the same side of the river.
 

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Not neccesarily. Maybe the attacker crossed the river where (and when) you didn't expect, and so it is on the same side. Or your general was sow and didn't retreated to the other side, so it was caught in the same side of the river.

yeah well....this is just a game so it should remain simple, not like what if or not stupid arguments!
When im being attacked at a river province i expect to get a bonus... plain and simple as that...
 

King Nothing

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This is a common misinterpretation. The "dots" from unit types are the least important factor that influence combat. At most they would increase your dice roll by +1. On the other hand, if you take a look at the shock modifiers, INF will have something around 0.45 during the early game, while CAV has 0.9. This modifier is used for the very final combat resolution, so basicly CAV deals (roughly) twice the shock damage of INF.

This effect decreases over time as INF gets better, but it takes up to LT 12 until you will notice the INF model and fire advantage. Landsknecht INF has enough defensive morale to withstand CAV and win morale wise. They will still take much higher casualties and deliever less damage to the enemy, though.
I know how it works for fire and shock but I have never bothered to learn about how morale damage is calculated, I was a strong follower of the all cav approach.... But in the wiki it says that the morale damage is only affected by the offensive and defensive morale (but the dice roll must obviously be there also).
If that is correct then the shock values (including modifiers of course) would indirectly affect the morale as they kill troops they also "kill" morale. Does an understrength regiment deal less morale damage and takes more morale damage or only one of them? So would 500 men deal half the morale damage and recieve double morale damage, effectively meaning being a quarter as effective?

EDIT: Ohh.. Answered before the big edit of the other post. I'll see how big of a difference it made. :)
EDIT2: It didn't change anything. Not regarding this post at least. :)
 
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GAGA Extrem

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yeah well....this is just a game so it should remain simple, not like what if or not stupid arguments!
When im being attacked at a river province i expect to get a bonus... plain and simple as that...
No, you can expect to have a river, but you can't be sure. Imo the terrain system for EU3 is great. Even terrain is choosen at random when a combat starts. If you hover your mouse over a province in terrain mode, you get a detailed summary at which % a terrain is to be expected during combat.

Would have been great if Pdox had taken this concept over to HoI3...

Even with the new battle tactics bonus for large infantry?
The post you're referring to has been updated, check it again :)
Unfortunalty, I have yet to find anything about tactics. I have not seen any decent impact until 1500 (my furthest HTTT game so far), nor did I see a modifier about that somewhere...

I know how it works for fire and shock but I have never bothered to learn about how morale damage is calculated, I was a strong follower of the all cav approach.... But in the wiki it says that the morale damage is only affected by the offensive and defensive morale (but the dice roll must obviously be there also).
If that is correct then the shock values (including modifiers of course) would indirectly affect the morale as they kill troops they also "kill" morale. Does an understrength regiment deal less morale damage and takes more morale damage or only one of them? So would 500 men deal half the morale damage and recieve double morale damage, effectively meaning being a quarter as effective?
Honestly - I don't know the exact formulars. But it sounds plausible that morale damage is not tied to losses. Well, if it was, CAV would obviously own INF all the way. So, forget about my statement and trust wiki!!

I was a "all-CAV" proponent, basicly since vanilla, but FINALLY, combined (or mixed) arms has become REALLY useful.
 
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