What type of WW2 airplane is this?

[billcorr]

What type of airplane is this?

The photograph of the airplane is from a screen shot from a 10 minutes USA WW2 film about aluminum.

 

[Graf Zeppelin]

I think its a Bell Airucuda.

 

[Mr. Capiatlist]

I think its a Bell Airucuda.

How have I not heard of this glorious vehicle before?

 

[billcorr]

I think its a Bell Airucuda.

Thanks! Well done. Much appreciated.

Here is a link to a contemporary advertising movie reel:

 

[Graf Zeppelin]

How have I not heard of this glorious vehicle before?

I have to much time on my hands when I am at work.

 

[Pyoro]

Whenever aluminium comes up I wonder whether it's the metal that had the biggest price fall in history. Not that I have found a definite answer so far (not entirely sure the question makes much sense either).

I have to much time on my hands when I am at work.

And you use it to prevent other people from learning about airplanes? How nefarious!

 

[Graf Zeppelin]

 

[billcorr]

Whenever aluminium comes up I wonder whether it's the metal that had the biggest price fall in history. Not that I have found a definite answer so far (not entirely sure the question makes much sense either).

 

[Graf Zeppelin]

View attachment 312810

It was already known and used in medieval times and earlier and worth a fortune back then. I think thats what he meant.

 

[Andre Bolkonsky]

I think its a Bell Airucuda.

Leave it to Graf to pick out the obscure aircraft hiding in an obscure documentary about aluminum; truly a maven of film.

 

[Andre Bolkonsky]

Whenever aluminium comes up I wonder whether it's the metal that had the biggest price fall in history. Not that I have found a definite answer so far (not entirely sure the question makes much sense either).

Aluminum is very difficult to refine or smelt properly. The graph you are showing should be held next to a chart showing the increase in aluminum production worldwide over that same time span. The greater the amount produced, the lower the price goes. I think that is the answer you are looking for.

 

[Pyoro]

The issue, as Graf correctly pointed out, is that it also was used before people figured out more efficient methods at getting at it (in reasonable pure quality). So that chart up there is fine and all, but by then industrial production had begun. And I have found nothing reliable on say ~1800 prizes (things improved vastly starting around 1830).

I don't know how true it is, but supposedly Napoleon at a banquet gave his most important guests aluminum cutlery, while the rest had to do with gold ... nonetheless that doesn't necessarily mean it was more valuable, just rare enough to be a curiosity, perhaps

 

[gagenater]

The issue, as Graf correctly pointed out, is that it also was used before people figured out more efficient methods at getting at it (in reasonable pure quality). So that chart up there is fine and all, but by then industrial production had begun. And I have found nothing reliable on say ~1800 prizes (things improved vastly starting around 1830).

I don't know how true it is, but supposedly Napoleon at a banquet gave his most important guests aluminum cutlery, while the rest had to do with gold ... nonetheless that doesn't necessarily mean it was more valuable, just rare enough to be a curiosity, perhaps

No - it really was that valuable at the time. If the chart went back another 50 years or so, it would start at something like $500 a pound/$32 per ounce. by comparison, gold was $320 a pound ($20 per ounce) Aluminum was extraordinarily difficult to isolate before the development of industrial quantities of electricity to separate it physically, which was developed in France in 1855.

Before then it's value was more or less unquantifiable - only tiny amounts had ever been produced in laboratories, and it was often unstable, either alloying itself with other metals during production, or spontaneously combusting immediately after isolation. It also required dangerous, exhausting and exacting chemical refining methods, utilizing poisonous reagents, explosive solid sodium metal, extreme temperatures, and which occasionally generated poison gas to produce microscopic quantities of Aluminum metal. .

The current price of aluminum is $1 a pound, or $0.06 per ounce. Using the price of gold as a 'constant' gold is presently at $1,280 an ounce.

If we do a little back calculating, we see that Aluminum went from being 1.5 times MORE valuable than gold, to being 21,000 times less valuable than gold - a price drop of over 30,000 times

 

[Kovax]

The one problem with isolating aluminum was that at the high temperatures needed to extract it, it was highly flammable, recombining as quickly as it was separated. The techniques for using inert gasses to avoid combustion weren't properly developed yet, so a wide variety of convoluted alternatives were tried (trial and error, mostly the latter), with varying degrees of limited success. The electrical process was a major breakthrough.

 

[Pyoro]

That's a bit concreter than what I found, thanks. Yes, the prize drop is obviously crazy, which is why I thought about it in the first place

But it's tough to compare in wider sense of the word. First, it's basically an arbitrary restriction since alum was used for ages and not nearly so expensive. So it's only "pure" forms, but for other metals it's the less pure forms that are actually more interesting. Secondly, other metals weren't available at all, so couldn't have a prize to compare to, but if they had been available, speculatively they'd just been as expensive. So it's really got little to do with aluminum as such and all with "we can get tiny amounts but no more" - basically, it hit just the right window of exotic demand and very little supply.

But it's nonetheless an interesting piece of history. Obviously, tons of things got massively cheaper with time, but it's still a notable case I think.

 

[keynes2.0]

Enriched uranium has probably had a bigger price fall then aluminium. In the 1930s there were multi-million dollar research efforts just to produce a few grams. After the 1990s and the disarmament treaties, there was a huge oversupply of HEU so they started mixing it with non-military grade stuff for use in powerplants. The price fell to under $10 a kilogram in the 1990s. Converting for inflation turns that $10 into $1. So the price per gram went from several million dollars to under a cent.

 

[gagenater]

That's a bit concreter than what I found, thanks. Yes, the prize drop is obviously crazy, which is why I thought about it in the first place

But it's tough to compare in wider sense of the word. First, it's basically an arbitrary restriction since alum was used for ages and not nearly so expensive. So it's only "pure" forms, but for other metals it's the less pure forms that are actually more interesting. Secondly, other metals weren't available at all, so couldn't have a prize to compare to, but if they had been available, speculatively they'd just been as expensive. So it's really got little to do with aluminum as such and all with "we can get tiny amounts but no more" - basically, it hit just the right window of exotic demand and very little supply.

But it's nonetheless an interesting piece of history. Obviously, tons of things got massively cheaper with time, but it's still a notable case I think.

Alum is not like aluminum at all functionally. It’s like comparing Fe2O3 (iron oxide aka rust aka red ochre) to steel or cast iron. The hominids that painted in red ochre at the Lascaux caves had no idea that iron or steel existed, and yet used the oxide of iron for milllenia as a decorative material. The relationship between alum and Aluminum is identical. Just as you cannot make a sword or a ship out of iron oxide, so to you cannot make wire or aircraft out of alum.

 

[gagenater]

Enriched uranium has probably had a bigger price fall then aluminium. In the 1930s there were multi-million dollar research efforts just to produce a few grams. After the 1990s and the disarmament treaties, there was a huge oversupply of HEU so they started mixing it with non-military grade stuff for use in powerplants. The price fell to under $10 a kilogram in the 1990s. Converting for inflation turns that $10 into $1. So the price per gram went from several million dollars to under a cent.

Plutonium is another good candidate in the same way. Ultimately though as you note, until the stuff is isolated in sufficient quantities to study it’s price is effectively infinite. It could be 1,000 pounds spent trying to isolate aluminum or 1,000,000 marks spent trying to isolate U235 or $1,000,000,000 spent trying to isolate plutonium. Until you have successfully got some to study the price per gram or whatever is infinite and unknown.

 

[Sanny]

Am I wrong in saying that the design looks awfully similar to one of Heinkel/Günter's prototype bomber designs? I distinctively remember that machine gun turret and engine design.

 

[DoomBunny]

No - it really was that valuable at the time. If the chart went back another 50 years or so, it would start at something like $500 a pound/$32 per ounce. by comparison, gold was $320 a pound ($20 per ounce) Aluminum was extraordinarily difficult to isolate before the development of industrial quantities of electricity to separate it physically, which was developed in France in 1855.

Before then it's value was more or less unquantifiable - only tiny amounts had ever been produced in laboratories, and it was often unstable, either alloying itself with other metals during production, or spontaneously combusting immediately after isolation. It also required dangerous, exhausting and exacting chemical refining methods, utilizing poisonous reagents, explosive solid sodium metal, extreme temperatures, and which occasionally generated poison gas to produce microscopic quantities of Aluminum metal. .

The current price of aluminum is $1 a pound, or $0.06 per ounce. Using the price of gold as a 'constant' gold is presently at $1,280 an ounce.

If we do a little back calculating, we see that Aluminum went from being 1.5 times MORE valuable than gold, to being 21,000 times less valuable than gold - a price drop of over 30,000 times

So Aluminium is like Venezuelan currency?