What to do as Canada?

[marxianTJ]

Looking again it's at 9 and some change, so it's much closer to ten in reality with education to the 1944 level and the +5% leadership minister (of which there appears to be 2).

Also took Norway (I have a few Mil brigades wandering around Norway securing the rest of the territory - but the border with Sweden and all ports are secure) - it's right out though, to invade continental Europe. Canada's manpower pool only seems to be able to support 3 corps worth of infantry of various sorts. and several MIL divisions (2x) for garrisoning purposes, and their support equipment (destroyers, transports, etc). It's simply too spooky to leave all those ports ungarrisoned, since even a landing of 4-5 divisions would require 1/3rd of my strength to go to wherever they landed. I did a test invasion of Bretagne/Brittany and tried to establish some defensive positions, but was unable to hold out - with only 20 or so manpower in the pool I got spooked and evacuated because I would never be able to sustain a knock down drag out fight against heavy weapons (Germany sent a heavy tank and mech/light tank divisions after me lol).

I also rethought how I worked the navy, because as is so often the case I'm finding, teching your navy doesn't really seem to have much of a *real* effect - so in a replay I just left the DDs at 36' and bought some LC's to act as destroyer leaders. Everything seems fine, got myself back into the exact same position with all the same territorial conquests, and no lost ships - and my land doctrines are far better. So once these last few garrison type MIL divisions finish, I think my bulk forces are going to try to conquer Japan, and then that will be the limit of what this sort of Canada can do.

In a humorous note, I've been shoving 30 excess IC into supplies to try to keep my resources in the green, but with several large runs of IC (hey I can't spend all this manpower), I decided my best bet to secure resources was to affect a raid on Rome. Which we managed to do - pillaged their stockpile and saw my IC shoot up to ~230 for a few weeks lol.

 

[SirArthur]

Hang on, you can increase your manpower through oversea provinces, it is just not possible with leadership. And invading Japan is actually a good first step (I would have tried in in 1938 though) to get more manpower.

 

[marxianTJ]

Yeah lol the MP situation is *still* bad even taking especial pains to capture any free resource bearing province that I can get my grubby canuck mits on. I've considered just sailing my junk fleet around the world knocking over anybody that I can so that I can at least get to the point where I can build something other than convoys, escorts, IC, and non-MP stuff. It's partially because of Sicily - the Germans, Italians, Bulgarians, and Romanians have HUGE stacks of troops in the boot and they constantly try to cross the strait which sucks up about 6 MP every month (which is pretty close to my overall MP gain per month). On the bright side, the divisions sitting there have 3 full stars of XP and I've got an automatic general leveling machine lol.

I can't block them with my naval units because my poor junk fleet will get bombed to tiny bits if it sits out there so close to Italy lol. I didn't go for Japan in 38' because I wanted to play "somewhat" reasonably - hence why I haven't knocked over every Caribbean nation, Portugal, etc.

 

[21oliver]

You dont need to get your Leadership up. Simply PL almost everything. When the War starts and you get Lend lease you will be cranking along....

 

[kunadam]

Lend lease. Does it help the allied effort that you are building stuff from their research and their IC?
I know that humans can do stuff with their force that the AI just cannot, but still would begging for lend lease actually hamper the war effort?
I fully understand why it is good for the USSR to have some extra IC, so they can churn out even more infantry. They have the MP for it.

 

[21oliver]

Yes in some cases getting Lend lease can hurt the giving nation. They tend to give out large quantities.

 

[Makje]

If you have IC to spare but not MP, would it not be better to go for IC intensive units? like 1 INF + 3 ART, or even tanks?
Offcourse with bad LS you'd have to stick to 1 type of units, so either tanks or INF. Art has only 2 slots so should be doable too. AC has 2 slots besides the LARM slots and SP-ART has 2 slots besides MARM slots so there is some synergy there. Only motorized brigades are missed in the division this way...
For DD and CL purchasing licenses seems to make most sense to me, only their AA is upgradeable anyway.

 

[Kovax]

A production license is a good idea for something that won't absolutely need upgrading, like a ship. ENG, and MOT, or other specialty units may qualify, since they use standard INF techs for most of their stats, but they'll fail to keep up in the more specialized aspects unless you can afford to put points into their relevant doctrines and unique equipment.

I regularly license MOT from GER, ITA, or JAP as an Axis minor, since it takes several rounds of 4 different Cavalry techs to unlock, plus the tech itself (Seriously, how many industrialized European countries were incapable of building a truck, or a road?). There are LARM techs which are relevant if I can spare the Leadership, but not critical if I can't.

In the case of fighters, in 2 years they'll be behind the curve and turn into flying coffins. For tanks, in 2 years they won't be able to pierce opposing tanks, but will be easily pierced by almost everything. You can only upgrade them by researching the techs yourself, and if you can do that, you don't need the PL. Use with caution.

Lend-Lease takes IC away from the giver, and hands it to the receiver, which is fine if the receiver has the Leadership to utilize it for modern equipment and the officer ratio to make it effective. If not, you're weakening your alliance by asking for it. I've found that in a couple of mods, the minors are so weak and behind in techs that the only thing they can effectively do is contribute Lend-Lease to the majors. The reverse is close to suicide for the whole faction.

 

[21oliver]

would it not be better to go for IC intensive units

When I play a game of specialty unit Canada I am using IC intensive units (MAR, MTN, Para etc...). There seldom is a "better" most often its a preference issue and that often depends on the flavor or type of game we choose to play. There are many ways to skin this cat and each way can be successful.

In the case of fighters, in 2 years they'll be behind the curve and turn into flying coffins. For tanks, in 2 years they won't be able to pierce opposing tanks, but will be easily pierced by almost everything. You can only upgrade them by researching the techs yourself, and if you can do that, you don't need the PL. Use with caution.

Buying the PL's gives me access to a variety of units (and of quality) I cannot access normally. And when used in a game like the one I am playing it is extremely useful. I wont be lining up against the might of say the German Army, Id be on the perephery nipping away, grabbing key locations etc... this style is well suited for that. I also would gradually upgrade the PLs, but at my pace.

Lend-Lease takes IC away from the giver, and hands it to the receiver

I find that the Allied side you have much more leeway. Taking Lend lease from the USA isnt an issue, the UK will be fine because they are an unusual set-up they cannot simply be invaded (at least not easily), France is going to fall anyway and the short window you get LL from them wouldnt save them, but can help save you. The Axis is a whole different story.

 

[21oliver]

Mis-post due to internet crash!

 

[marxianTJ]

I thought about Licensing medium tanks - but the way it works you can only build the one brigade of it, so I'd have to built all those tank divs individually meanwhile licensing *all* the other stuff for them too (the mot divisions any attachments) and that would've gotten really tedious really fast lol not to mention expensive.

 

[21oliver]

If your going to do that your only going to do one corps (Arm x 5 / Mot x 10) not too bad, anymore and would be tough. I personally dont do Armor units as Canada.

 

[Sir Garnet]

Interesting thread.

I'm playing Australia rather than Canada for Commonwealth support, and it seems like both countries will gravitate to theatres big enough to matter but remote enough from the Axis hordes to avoid being overrun - North and East Africa and the Near East being suitable, though Australia also has to worry/help regarding Japan, and starts with a useful mostly CA/CL fleet to which I added more transport, licensed destroyers, an additional sub flotilla, and a home-built light carrier with a CAG aboard that has proven very useful for escorting the fleet with transports and for use on coastlines without airbases in friendly-controlled seas (i.e., places lacking in enemy airpower and dangerous enemy fleets). It may be that this is feasible because I'm using HPP, which has more rationalized tech trees that enables minors being able to concentrate research in a few areas effectively (and no separate cav, militia etc. trees that did not make sense to me).

Naval patrol bombers have been very useful all over as well, thanks to their long range in the large-province part of the world. In fact, my thought on Canada was to specialize in airpower deployed to bomb and convoy raid/patrol overseas in places without quality Axis fighter opposition and make a dent that way, plus build a small army for Africa including a motorized corps with a couple divs led by a high-stats licensed tank unit Then add cheaper defensive divisions to hold key Alllied-controlled ports such as Alexandria and Suez.

While deployed in East Africa and helping the British bolster the Spanish Republic against Axis invasion, I was shocked to see a message that Suez fell to the Italians - probably just two Italian infantry - despite those areas having many units present. Looking more closely, they were all HQ units - in fact, on examination it appeared that the nearest ground combat troops were in Palestine or engaged at the other end of Libya, and nothing but HQ staff, air, and numerous naval forces in between.

So there is a lesson to check frequently and help secure key points myself, although for Canada the entry to the Med is the easily defended Gibraltar rather than Suez. Another is to be more wary of supply issues for large in allied or liberated territory since they may fall short in providing the necessary supply routes and convoys (had to evacuate Barcelona because there were not enough supplies for the force strength needed to defend it against repeated assaults). This weighs in favor of the national self-interested strategy of adjusting plans to land and capture enemy territory for my own country first rather than capture it from host territory, which allows control over supply and can also help with resources and manpower.

The lessons also weigh in favor of more of those high-quality specialist troops that are discussed above. They are more not reliant on petrol to move and fight and with armor-piercing capability and a suitable position can bloody enemy armor. What do you think about an air power + high-grade groundpounder strategy to tip the balance in peripheral theatres?

 

[21oliver]

As the Australians my concern always is the home islands first, because Japan will come calling... I usually re-enforce my isles and their defenses and create a small fast fleet with quality troops and anytime the Japanese land, I try to land behind them and cut them off. I like to license alot of stuff as Australia as well. I devote most of my attention to Asia. I try and snatch and grab some islands, help in Singapore and generally harass the Japanese. A small sub fleet can cause them some supply problems as well. Im not a big proponent of armor for minors, air power yes however!

 

[kunadam]

Naval bomber requires extra research, on top of what one has to do for INT and TAC. But if they can do some serious damage, then why not.
Canada cannot field a big land army, so it has to be specialist, some navy and airforce.

 

[Kovax]

I thought about Licensing medium tanks - but the way it works you can only build the one brigade of it, so I'd have to built all those tank divs individually meanwhile licensing *all* the other stuff for them too (the mot divisions any attachments) and that would've gotten really tedious really fast lol not to mention expensive.

You can license a Serial or Parallel build. Up the numbers to 2 runs of 3 each and you've got 6 in the pipeline, 2 at a time. With MOT, you can upgrade them with your own INF techs, so that's not a major issue. Armor is tougher, and takes a bit more micromanagement, since they'll be obsolete by the time they're done if you use a serial run.

 

[21oliver]

since they'll be obsolete by the time they're done if you use a serial run.

Here is the thing though, typically if your a Minor your not butting heads with the top of the line of the opposing faction. Obsolete PL's typically are better then what you can build and still good enough to get it done in most cases. I do it almost every game. If I PL units as Canada from the UK or USA, I can usually take North Africa from Italy or Norway from Germany, Mediterranean Islands, Islands in the pacific etc... I am never discouraged by the PL's becoming obsolete. I will upgrade which i want when i can. This strategy allows me to focus all my LS in Industry, Supply etc... If your playing a small nation and intend on waging large scale battles against the Germans or Soviets you have your hands full anyway.

 

[Sir Garnet]

I am never discouraged by the PL's becoming obsolete. I will upgrade which i want when i can. This strategy allows me to focus all my LS in Industry, Supply etc...

How do you mean "upgrade" the PLs. A separate new PL unit, upgrade with your own techs, or a way to upgrade a PL unit with better licensed equipment?

 

[21oliver]

You upgrade what you can buy researching the techs yourself at your own pace. Lets say Im a minor that can build 1918 Infantry, so I license some 1936 Infantry. This allows me to 1) Spend my LS on the Industry and Supply tabs and others... and 2) Put Units in the queue that are already better than mine and i can start building practicals and distribute units around the world. When you have limited LS there simply is only so many things you can invest in. I choose to invest in the Industry and Supply tabs primarily myself, occasionally I will pick one item (say BB or CA etc...) to try and do on my own.

 

[Kovax]

Since I tend to play Axis minors, my needs tend to be different. I can research and build top notch basic INF, along with passable ART to go with it, and catch and keep up with the most important Industrial techs. That leaves around 1 Leadership point (after Officer Training, Espionage, and Diplomacy) for everything else. I'm NEVER going to catch up to most of the techs I can license, yet I'm going to need decent equipment to deal with Soviet armor at some point. Canada doesn't need to engage Germany head on; Hungary or Romania will need to face the SU at some point.

If I license armor, I've got to go through 3 stages of all four LARM techs before I can unlock ARM, research the basic ARM tech, and then begin to research any ARM techs I want to increase. That's 13 techs BEFORE I start to upgrade from the most basic ARM tech level, and at 6+ months per research slot (due largely to low Practicals, since I'm never going to build the quantities that the Majors do), that's 7+ years of "catch-up" before I see the benefits of a single tech level. Then you add in doctrines, or more likely, FAIL to add in doctrines, because you don't have the Leadership to do so and dedicate anything to techs. Alternatively, I can license-build a TD, and only need to keep my two AT gun techs up to date, only one of which is absolutely necessary for Piercing. The TD's armor will inevitably drop way behind the curve, but it will still pierce anything on the map for the rest of the game, provided I maintain that one AT tech. I can also License-build MOT, which uses the same techs as Infantry for combat purposes, although it won't quite keep up with the Majors for speed, thanks to the LARM techs which it also uses.

Licensing INT is "acceptable", because you can confine your research to a single tech slot plus doctrines. There's no need to "unlock" the next category of aircraft, as with tanks (LARM, ARM, HARM), so you can simply keep researching Armament and the two fighter training doctrines and stay reasonably competitive, since the game doesn't properly factor in Toughness and Defensiveness for air combat.