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Modestus

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What the hell is going on with the dice role?

I know that Rome is very dependant on the quality of your generals but as I said before the dice role combined with attrition and now the ping pong fix seems to be able to generate a situation where any army can be transformed from a victorious to a seriously defeated one in the blink of an eye and in many cases because of the ping pong fix you run the real risk of being ultimately destroyed by a game mechanic (dice role) that the player has no control over.

I know games cant cover every situation but if the overall game play has changed enough to make battles a lot harder to avoid I think its essential that you do not allow luck to influence the outcome of a battle to this degree.

In Rome I find I am watching the enemy approach and wondering whats the dice role going to do because in many cases there is bugger all else I can do but wait and just waiting could hardly be described as tactical game play.

I see three major issues with the game at present, firstly less maneuverability for armies compared to EU3 which means battles are harder to avoid, secondly the influence of the dice role on the outcome of any battle and thirdly the affect of attrition.

In a lot of situations an army that on paper should win a battle ends up losing because the dice role paralyzes the HI making them ineffective and because your morale takes hits from depleted units it is critical that your HI can get at those depleted units quickly and wipe them out. A bad dice effectively stops this happening. The best way of describing battles in Rome for me is the unreliability of your own forces in any battle.

On top of this the resulting attrition from a defeat can be quite harsh depending on the time it takes to retreat from a province but as I pointed out in another thread it also has a serious affect on you overall ability to reinforce other armies that are not even in the same theatre. So even though you could get a good dice role in one battle a few bad roles elsewhere and your capability to reinforce your armies is gone.

It wont be long before armies cannot reinforce themselves. If you hit a 10,000 army with a 15,000 army and get a good dice role you could knock two thousand men out of that army, as this army retreats it loses more men to attrition and by the time it reaches another province it could easily be heading for the 2-1 ratio but at least its morale would have increased.

I am now curious how this will work in In Nomine because I am beginning to think that even though retreating to another province should be faster this will also mean your morale wont have increase substantially before another army follows up with an attack. So the risk of the complete destruction of an army from a bad dice role in the first battle could conceivable be worse in IN because your morale will be so low in the second battle.

The main point I am making and this could also be a question, is the luck of the dice role becoming more influential on the overall campaign then was first intended.
 

comagoosie

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dice rolls simulate battle events. Like, lets say you roll a "9" and your enemy rolled a "0". You can roleplay and say that you ambushed the enemy succesfully and they were caught sleeping.

It actually makes for good story telling. :D
 

Modestus

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comagoosie said:
dice rolls simulate battle events. Like, lets say you roll a "9" and your enemy rolled a "0". You can roleplay and say that you ambushed the enemy succesfully and they were caught sleeping.

It actually makes for good story telling. :D

I appreciate that but it also appears to be simulating Hari kiri which was not the intention.

A bad dice role could conceivably wipe out an army and not an annoying 3,000 force but a 10,000 force . I would be more concerned about that happening In Nomine rather than in Rome because in In Nomine you should be able to pursue the retreating force faster and hit it for the second battle before it can recover its morale.

I could quite happily hunt down 2,000 men armies in NA with a 20,000 Cavalry force but it could now be possible to hunt down and destroy armies of 10,000 or even 15,000 it will all depend on the initial dice role. A good one for the player and the AI army is probably gone in the next battle.
 

cwg9

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History is full of examples of large, well provisioned armies that "should" have won getting their arses kicked by smaller, less well equipped forces who used good tactics. This is what the dice roll simulates.

From a gameplay perspective, I've decided I like the new system, it makes things more exciting, you have to be much more careful how you deploy your troops and where you engage the enemy. If an army gets wiped out unexpectedly, then you get to have fun adapting to the situation and closing the hole in your lines.

Let's face it, it's already too easy to beat the AI, a mechanic that lets it win battles decisively once in a while and keeps the player on their toes is all for the good.
 

Modestus

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Make it harder for the player? It makes life a lot easier I would have thought. My examples are what has happened to me but it also happens to the AI and when it does you open a huge hole in their defenses.

Last night an AI army of about 24 units attacked my army of about 23 units, normally the way my luck seems to run I would get the bad dice role but in this case I got a very good role and they took terrible losses. Once they retreated I obviously pursued them. For the AI it was all over at least for that section of the front line and for all their other armies I assumed reinforcement now became a problem. It certainly appeared to be the case when I checked their manpower levels they where at 4.6 or something and going down.

Again the point I am trying to make is that the first battle could have gone either way it appears to be just pure luck but when it goes the wrong way for the AI its a disaster. The player can recover the AI cannot.

If you have the same thing in In Nomine it could even be easier because judging by the time it takes to pursue an army to another province you will fight the second battle with the AI,s morale much lower and have a much better chance of eliminating a large army in the first 5 days.
 

DarthJF

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cwg9 said:
History is full of examples of large, well provisioned armies that "should" have won getting their arses kicked by smaller, less well equipped forces who used good tactics. This is what the dice roll simulates.
I think unit stats and leaders should represent tactics and and equipment, and lead random unforeseeable things for dice.

Luck has too large part in Romes battles in my opinion. Too often weaker armies with worse leaders win battles because random dice rolls of 7 vs. 1. D6 as dice would be much better than current system imo. It would reduce the role of dice, but still allow significant amount of randomness.
 

cwg9

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Using a d6 is an interesting idea, worth considering.

Modestus, I agree with you that sometimes the AI's lines collapse with this system, but I would argue that the problem is not the battle system per se, but rather that the AI itself is not very good (e.g. it just throws troops at you with no strategic planning).

Regardless, I am also saying that I personally am finding the gameplay more fun with this system than I did with 1.1, which is good in itself IMO as it is keeping me from losing interst in the game (at least until tomorrow when I switch to In Nomine!) :)
 

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The dice shouldn't have such a large effect on anything but bad Martial rating generals in my opinion.

Yeah, large armies have historically been wiped out by smaller ones, but usually due to incompetent command or the terrain.

The dice system leaves too much up to random chance. I say that the lower your general's martial skill then the more the dice are able to affect him, but the higher his skill is then the less that is left up to random chance (not just "Your general is higher than the other general so you get +1 points").

A more experienced, smarter general is going to be able to deal with adverse conditions more easily.
 

comagoosie

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Having the dice roll any less will make battle predictable, when must of the times they weren't. There are minute things that needed to be calculated which are represented (abtractly) through the dice.
 

kristoff

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Experience is the most underestimated factor now in EU:R. Take Ceasar's campaigns during civil war. In every major battle (from Farsalos, through Alexandria, Nile, Zela to Munda) he was greatly outnumbered and "dice rolls" couldn't be so favourable for him every time :) But he managed to keep hard veterans with him, while opponents were usually using ill-moraled and unexperienced fresh recruits or eastern levies.

If only EU:R had a mechanics reflecting obligatory releasing men from military service after 20 years (and organizing new recruitment to fill a legion again), it would bring a whole new political dimension. Trying to keep veteran legions on one's side (if needed by extending their service time, promising soldiers more money, lands ect.) was an important part of late republic politics. No one general was happy to hear that a veteran legion is taken away from him and replaced with a fresh one or when service term of his veterans came to an end and they had to be replaced by new recruits.
 

Das123

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I agree that it is too large.

I would also like to see terrain effects having more say in the battles. As has been pointed out, crossing a river is only worth -1. Maybe these terrain effects (and generals etc) could have more influence in generating the random number.

Eg.
Basic modifier changed to +d6
Attacking across river -d3
General's skill +d4 - 2
Etc.
 

UniversalWolf

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I would think the skill of the general ought to be the predominant factor in a battle.

Think of Hannibal: he traipsed up and down Italy for years with a rag-tag band of soldiers and mopped the floor with every army Rome sent against him, primarily because he was flat out a better general than any on the other side. Sertorius used hit-and-run guerrilla tactics with local tribesmen against Rome for years in Spain and was only done in by being murdered by a traitor. Think of Spartacus as well, or Themistocles at Salamis, or any of a dozen other examples.

Smaller, less well-equipped armies can defeat larger armies by using better tactics, but they have to be led by a superb general for it to work.
 

Modestus

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The dice role adds a certain uncertainty to the result of a battle thats for sure but the consequences of bad dice role appear to me to be a lot more extreme in Rome and could also be a lot more extreme in In Nomine and thats where I am coming from.

We have all experienced the Barbarian army of 30 depleted units defeating your army of 20 fully strength units, no big deal really because that Barbarian army is going to sit on its arse and starve itself to death. :)

It gets a little harder when its the Macedonians because they tend to follow your retreating army but the truth is the only reason you have probably lost both battles is because of a bad dice role. When you finally do get that good dice role and especially if its a large battle the AI is immediately in big trouble. Not only has it lost troops in the battle it must now retreat suffering a sizable amount of attrition and the almost certain fact the the player is hot on its heels.

I agree that there needs to be a lot more thought and effort by the player to organise and deploy their forces in Rome which is a good thing. But I also believe that the main reason for this is because of the time it takes to move from one province to another. At some point you will almost certainly have to fight the AI on their terms unlike in EU3 where the player could maneuver in and out of a province much faster and attempt to fight the AI on your terms.

I think this ability to maneuver was an important component of EU3 wars and during a campaign it had the overall affect of balancing out the bad dice roles unless of course the player was very reckless.

Another example from my Roman game is entering a province and finding that a large AI force reacts to my presence, it could be a month away but a quick look around tells me that I cannot retreat in time. So I sit with my 18,000 army and wait for the 24,000 AI to arrive. What I am really waiting for is the first days dice role, I have seen my level 8 generals get woeful dice roles and the only explanation for their losses would be if they had faced their army the wrong way towards the enemy.

Slightly beginning to confuse myself now because I do not want to appear to be arguing for an easier game, absolutely not.

I agree that better modifiers for river crossings, mountainous terrain, quality and the experience of troops are needed, anything that would have been a factor in a real battle, then let there be an element of luck but not so large that all the other factors don't matter, you cant have all this wiped out with a dice role
 

unmerged(85598)

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I wouldn't terribly mind extreme dice rolls, though I'd prefer a more rational set of modifiers with a smaller dice, so long as you had the ability to properly retreat. There is no reason in the world that my legions should always be forced to fight an obviously superior force, when their retreat had a month and a half's head start.

If we had proper nonengamement orders, and an AI that knew when best to take advantage of them, then the current system wouldn't be quite so frustrating; as it stands, it takes warfare from a chore to an annoying and half-random chore. Though, this may be aggravated from a hundred men doing as much morale damage as a thousand...
 

Modestus

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By pure good fortune I had two examples last night that illustrate what I am talking about.

The first two screen shots show my Roman army being attacked by the Achaean league who are Macedonians allies, as you can see the Roman army on paper is far superior but a bad dice role is causing me to take more causalities. In the end they AL lost and retreated but from previous experience If they had a force equal in numbers to mine but still with their inferior militia they would have won with those dice roles.

http://www.imagehosting.com/show.php/1766983_1rome6.jpg.html

http://www.imagehosting.com/show.php/1766984_2rome7copy.jpg.html

In the previous screens you may have noticed that I had another army in the province just to the east, Dardania. Now look what happens when the player gets the good dice role and the AI has committed a large force. Even though the screen shot is a bit into the battle you can see that this time the AI had a much better army both in quality and numbers then its previous army but because they got a bad dice role my army is basically annihilating them. I followed them up and destroyed about 26 units essentially because of the dice role.

http://www.imagehosting.com/show.php/1766987_3rome9copy.jpg.html



And thats the end of Macedonia.
 
Last edited:
May 29, 2008
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In my opinion, the dice roll could be alleviated by making the general's Martial level have the same effect. As of now, there isn't a difference between a Level 7 general and a Level 9 general, they are in the same bracket. Make it so there is an actual 2-point advantage. I just got my butt kicked out of Carthage because of the dice roll :mad: