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Premu

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Saar is in Germany, and starts with a level 1 fort, and the AI sometimes kicks it up to 2. Its across the Rhine river.

The river is important, too. Attacks crossing a river get a severe penality. Avoid large scale battles for crossing rivers, you will have a lot of losses. If you have to attack, bring engineer brigades and attack from different directions. The best way to cross them is to either use paratroopers to take a free province behind and use the paratroopers to fall the enemy in the back, or to cross the river after a breakthrough without any combat.
 

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I think the worst is having a huge army stacked in a province, totally pin-down by a single attacking brigade. Thanks to the new frontage concept. It happened to me a few times, when my army was moving through a province occupied by a huge stack of divisions from an allied AI. We were attacked by a single goddamn german brigade and we were stuck there for weeks!!!! almost 300K men with supply against 2000. And it took weeks!!! During this time, of course, you can't do shit! You're stuck until the battle resolve! Of course, you could retreat. But who would retreat when the odds are massively on your side??! And when the battle resolved, they had suffered ridiculous casualties (like 100 soldiers) and we were attacked by another single Slovakia brigade. And here we go again for a week of useless fighting.

Something's not right with that concept.

Can't you grab some of the units and move them away? Sure, it's a "retreat", but it gets them out without losing too much, and after a couple days they can continue moving, while the units you leave continue the defense. Just look at it as a "spoiling attack" or raid that disrupted things for a few days. It happened, though of course, again, the game has to abstract some things. Don't move through front-line areas and except to cruise through unscathed.
 

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I still don't get why there is any stacking penalty at all, when the other units are considered as reserves and do not fight.:wacko:

I understood this feature fully in HOI1 and HOI2, where it was justified by the fact that each rank was able to command only a certain amount of divisions. But why is this penalty included in HOI3, if only few divisions are actually in combat and the others just sit in the rear and do nothing...
 

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I think the worst is having a huge army stacked in a province, totally pin-down by a single attacking brigade. Thanks to the new frontage concept. It happened to me a few times, when my army was moving through a province occupied by a huge stack of divisions from an allied AI. We were attacked by a single goddamn german brigade and we were stuck there for weeks!!!! almost 300K men with supply against 2000. And it took weeks!!! During this time, of course, you can't do shit! You're stuck until the battle resolve! Of course, you could retreat. But who would retreat when the odds are massively on your side??! And when the battle resolved, they had suffered ridiculous casualties (like 100 soldiers) and we were attacked by another single Slovakia brigade. And here we go again for a week of useless fighting.

Something's not right with that concept.

This is the reason why Stacking penalty is completely nuts. Why do we even need a stacking penalty, when there's frontage. Disabling stacking penalty from ground units and lowering stacking penalty in naval battles and bombings would probably a good thing.
 

SFJackBauer

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This is the reason why Stacking penalty is completely nuts. Why do we even need a stacking penalty, when there's frontage. Disabling stacking penalty from ground units and lowering stacking penalty in naval battles and bombings would probably a good thing.

Yes, you have frontage, but also you get reserves. If there wasn't stacking penalty, you could stack so many reserves behind the frontlines that any battle could take forever.
 

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Yes, you have frontage, but also you get reserves. If there wasn't stacking penalty, you could stack so many reserves behind the frontlines that any battle could take forever.

so it's better to have those battles where on one side (attackers) have no reserves take forever. (in the case of 30000000000000000000 men being attacked by 3000)
 

SFJackBauer

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so it's better to have those battles where on one side (attackers) have no reserves take forever. (in the case of 30000000000000000000 men being attacked by 3000)

They doesn't take forever if you flank the attackers and exact revenge on them.

Although the game doesn't model it, I prefer to imagine the enemy is doing a holding attack to pin my movement. So why left 50 divisions there being attacked, when you can pull 40 to side provinces and encircle them?

Also when a "single-brigade attack" finishes, they are on low org and then can be easily overrun by you.
 

unmerged(124603)

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so it's better to have those battles where on one side (attackers) have no reserves take forever. (in the case of 30000000000000000000 men being attacked by 3000)

I second this. It's completely crazy - 150 brigades are sometimes driven out of a province by 10 enemy brigades. Just because 10 bigades of these 150 were defeated in combat. The rest retreat in horror, I suppose.
 

StephenT

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I still don't get why there is any stacking penalty at all, when the other units are considered as reserves and do not fight.
They're still sitting just behind the front line blocking all the roads and preventing supply convoys from getting through to the troops doing the fighting. You're going to get 100-mile long traffic jams and troops starving because their rations are stuck in a tailback in the last province...
 

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I still don't get why there is any stacking penalty at all, when the other units are considered as reserves and do not fight.:wacko:

I understood this feature fully in HOI1 and HOI2, where it was justified by the fact that each rank was able to command only a certain amount of divisions. But why is this penalty included in HOI3, if only few divisions are actually in combat and the others just sit in the rear and do nothing...

Difference between tactical and strategic reserves? As in, some reserve units are a few miles behind the lines and not fighting at the moment, but can be brought up quickly, are still considered to be in the battle area, and must be supplied and organized. Opposed by units who are in temporary or permanent bases a hundred miles behind the lines with their own organic logistic system and command-and-control, who can be moved up in good time if needed via road or rail, but aren't really part of the battle. That's my guess for the rationale.
 

unmerged(129069)

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They're still sitting just behind the front line blocking all the roads and preventing supply convoys from getting through to the troops doing the fighting. You're going to get 100-mile long traffic jams and troops starving because their rations are stuck in a tailback in the last province...

There's already supply problems for huge stacks on one province, why put in another penalty when they're in battle? I really don't see how it would affect the gameplay negatively. And I really don't see it as a realism question either, it's just plain silly. I could understand it if it wasn't so huge, perhaps 10% penalty at max would be reasonable.
 

unmerged(171517)

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Combat System

While the combat system is not something I would of ever thought up of, it is rather cunning. In your case, cracking the west wall would take an attack over 2 hexsides (or province sides) with at least 4 infantry divisions each. You need to ensure you have commanders with fort buster modifiers and someone with an engineer capability to assist in negating the effect of the fortification. I would not attack over the river section, there is a spot further north where you can avoid the river and get your 2 hex-side attack. If the Germans have 2 divisions in that location we could expect the following combat effect.

Units in combat: The Germans get all their divisions to participate. If the French divisions are 3xinf, 1xart, 1xAA each then they can 4 divisions from 1 stack to participate and 2 from the other, for a total of 6 divisions.

Combat values : Because this is all infantry the only 2 numbers which are important is the Soft Attack and Defensivness. (Toughness is important for the attacker, but the attacker has 2 reserve divisions to replace anyone in the front line unlucky enought to run away so I will not worry about this in this example). In 1940 we could expect a Soft Attack value of 18 and a defensivness value of 32. (This actually gives you a clue why there was no casulaties in your combat - you need 3 divisions with no negative modifiers due to stacking to get any hits against a defending infantry division - which would be almost impossible if your attack was all through one hexside and suffering massive negative modifiers)

Getting Hits : To get any hits against the defending infantry division you need 3 attacking divisions. In this case the total Soft Attack value is 3x18=54. Subtract the defenders Defensivness of 32 and you end up with 22 hits against the defender. Both should get hammered the same and at 22 hits per 1 hour round those divisions will not last long. Of course once you factor in the modifiers due to fort, terrain, etc the number of hits is reduced, but even if it gets massively reduced you still have the chance of 4-5 divisions hitting a single divisions and getting hits against it. In this case the combat will last much longer, but you should still win.

Your causulaties: Your infantry divisions have a toughness of 17.7, which means the enemy has a chance of getting 2 hits per 1 hour round, per division. Considering you are dishing out up to 44 hits a 1 hour round, this is not a big issue.

I am not sure how historical this combat system is, it feels wrong in many ways - but it does work so I can't really complain too much. However some things become really obvious - the more powerful divisions will win out because it allows you to achieve the highest possible attack and defense density. (Example : If you had 3 inf brigades fighting a single infantry divisions of 3xinf brigades - the inf brigades will lose any combat. The infantry division will get a chance to attack a single brigade with all of its combat force (13.2 Soft Attack v 8.53 defensivness - ~5 hits per round). The 3 inf brigades would attack with a total of 13.2 Soft Attack - but the infantry division would have a defensivness of 25.5, which means no hits are achieved. In summary, the 3 seperate brigades are toast.

Thus, its important to get the technology which allows 5 brigades in a division. Because of the 4 x 3 frontage rule its best to keep your division frontage to 3 - but you can load 2 support brigades into your division to give it a greatly enhanced combat value. This gives you the maximum attack value through a hex-side and I assume the greatest usable defensivness in a hex/province.
 

Harfang28

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Can't you grab some of the units and move them away? Sure, it's a "retreat", but it gets them out without losing too much, and after a couple days they can continue moving, while the units you leave continue the defense. Just look at it as a "spoiling attack" or raid that disrupted things for a few days. It happened, though of course, again, the game has to abstract some things. Don't move through front-line areas and except to cruise through unscathed.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think you can't hand picked the units you want to retreat. It's all of them, or none. So even the units not actually engaged in combat (in reserve) don't do shit beside waiting for the Second Messiah until the battle resolve. You should be able to pick any unit in reserve and move them at will, except being able to attack the province where the attack is coming from. Otherwise, it's a nonsense.
 

Modestus

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There's already supply problems for huge stacks on one province, why put in another penalty when they're in battle? I really don't see how it would affect the gameplay negatively. And I really don't see it as a realism question either, it's just plain silly. I could understand it if it wasn't so huge, perhaps 10% penalty at max would be reasonable.

Best just to visualise the stacking penalty as your inability to swing a sword in a confined space.

The battle of Cannea is an example of turning a disadvantage in numbers into an advantage by not allowing the Romans to gain any advantage from their superior numbers. Hannibal effectively restricted the Romans combat frontage by tactics.
 

unmerged(65101)

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You can still force 300,000 men through that hole... just not all at once. Have 280,000 men 1 province back, and have them start moving towards the province where the fighting is going on when you're at like 95% towards victory. Then have them "blitz" through the opening.

It's all about combat frontage, like others have said.
 

AlanC9

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Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think you can't hand picked the units you want to retreat. It's all of them, or none.

I'm pretty sure individual divisions can be retreated. Obviously, if you retreat one of the frontline divisions you're at a disadvantage until a reserve division makes it into the battle, but it's doable.
 

loki100

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I'm pretty sure individual divisions can be retreated. Obviously, if you retreat one of the frontline divisions you're at a disadvantage until a reserve division makes it into the battle, but it's doable.

perfectly doable - esp if you are on the strategic defense, pretty much essential as you can leave one division as a rearguard and pull the others back .... if you are really lucky they may escape the province before the front collapses, but even so you save on org and get them back into your (new) defense line all the quicker
 

GAGA Extrem

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Saar is in Germany, and starts with a level 1 fort, and the AI sometimes kicks it up to 2. Its across the Rhine river.

And thats the answer. Having 400k or not, if they have to swim over the rhine, they are useless. ;)
 

heteaho

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Edit out the stacking penalties for ground troops, they are not needed as there is such a thing as front width now. Game works just fine without stacking penalties for ground combat and most superstack problems go away (including attacking with huge odds)

--> common folder, --> defines.lua

--> BASE_STACKING_PENALTY = -0.00


And you are good to go.