What Stellaris can learn from Paradox Games

[Narr666]

Hi folks,

First Disclaimer: I love Stellaris and I don´t want to make it into another game. I totally get that the streamlining of Stellaris is a great part, if not the greatest part of it´s success. So it would be pointless to demand that Stellaris turns into a "full" grand strategy.

But the reason of my blogpost is simple: For me, it doesn´t lived up to the expectation. My other Paradox Games, CKII and EUIV, are still superior to Stellaris in my opinion. And after thinking a while over what bugs me with this title, I found that it´s not the "Grand Strategy Complexity" that is missed by me, it´s some Paradox-esque uniqueness, that makes this games great but didn´t make it into Stellaris to that extent I hoped. I would like to elaborate what I feel is missing and provide some ideas how it can be brought in without turning the game into something different.

If you like or hate my ideas or want to add something, feel free to start a discussion. That´s the point of this post anyway.


Player Ambition and Change are the two words I choose to bring my ideas in order. But let me start with Ethics.

Ethics

In my opinion CKII is a game about power in relation to the individual. It´s about people, their desires, their faults and what this means to politics.
EUIV is a game about politics, it´s these nets of alliances and rivalries, that make the bulk of foreign relations, that can make the world a good place to live or making everything go up in flames.
Stellaris for me is a game about Ethics, about ideas and way of lives that clash. The opponents are now literally alien to one another and they want to show the Galaxy, that they are right with their ideas of how things should be done. And in these clashes of ideas lie the seeds of war and progress.

Player Ambition

This paradox "thing" is great in EUIV and absolutely masterful in CKII. You have no goal and they dictate you nothing like "conquer the world", more so, these games try to discourage you to do so. So, you really have nothing to do, the only thing you can care about, if you want to, are those Prestige points. But the games let you want things without telling you anything. You want your old guy have this courtier before his death, because he truly deserved it after being married to that hag for 40 years. You hate the guts of this Duke for what he´s done to you, so you want him dead, and when you have him, you don´t care that your vassals consider you a tyrant, even when you could throw him in the Oubliette. You want to beat the other nation in the colony game, for that you need these isles. You simply want to help your ally after being invaded, even when staying at home would be no difference, because "he" has done "so much" for you.

I miss these self generated ambitions, where the game makes me want to want something. Even when you don´t care about the victory condition, there is not much to want. Expand! is the prime directive in my opinion, and that´s a shame, because the pure discouragement to conquer all the time was exactly, what made Paradox Games feel so real. Because the "real world" is more Crusader Kings than Total War. I wanna wish a Stellaris, where I can be contempt with my little peaceful or hateful Empire, without the obligation to Expand! to keep the game interesting.

Change

The other great thing is the ability of the game to change. Change your perspective, change your enviroment, change the way you play mid-game. You are forced to give the Council Power and suddenly you have to deal with them. Your succession laws change and you turn from a Gavelkind Mafia Clan to a Primogeniture Dictator. You were a bright, beloved genius until you died, now you are a envious, hateful dumb idiot. The King is a Heretic, the new continent dips the power balance, your greatesst ally is now your greatest enemy, the Pope excommunicates you and your nation turns the back on him

Ideas

In my opinion, the Ethics are the key to everything. They will make me want to want somethings, if the game encourages me to fight (not only with war) for my ideas. Give my Xenophile or Pascifist Empire a pop-up, when my neighbors enslaving people or purging them. That alone will give the player reason enough to intervene. More so, give Happiness and/ or Influence modifier if in my neighbourhood enforces things my empire would hate. Let me negotiate with other races about their policies. Let me pay or threaten them to abolish slavery, let me give myself the "stop atrocities" for more warscore for more years, let me open the borders for refugees fleeing from an aggressive force.
There´s no game with a better revolt system than Crusader Kings II I think. These rebels want something and it´s not always "independence". The revolts in CKII feel so real, that I think Stellaris need something like that.

Let the rebels first and foremost fight for ethics. The Xenophobe Faction would like to make the Xenophile empire Xenophobe as well, or the other way around. They want to flee the Slaves or they want to have slaves like your oppressive neighbor. Maybe they hate the King/President and wanna see him jailed, maybe they don´t like your Dictatorship and demand Democracy. And let them have Spaceships by conquering mine, by the way. And when goverments can fall through revolutions, they should fall through Coup d´Etat as well. And these Coups can be intiated by me to change my empire, than I would have to fight my own people.

Let us fight other empires for their ethics or negotiate "good behavior", let me fight to make the government (but not the people) one ethic change. Let us learn from one another, from Cooperations there could be Ethic changes in the pops. When two races agree to build something together, your pop could convert to Xenophil, when people just saw their world turned to ash, they can become Xenophobe or militaristic. When everything resolves more about ideas than colonies, Space would indeed be great again.

And then the great "thing" from EUIV. The diplomatic net. The relation are so dense and complicated. Sometimes in the game, attacking one small province is like throwing a burning match in hay. Suddenly, the war of Portugal vs. Castille sets Europe aflame. And that´s great diplomacy. Stellaris should grow into this net with all it´s advantages and drawbacks. That would give the game the depth it needs and the wars would mean more as "give me your stuff..

Like my ideas? Hate them? Just comment.

Keep on gaming,

Dennis

 

[Vjeldan]

Yes please!

 

[Dalinski]

Yes, anything to make the galaxy feel more alive is good.

 

[Dunaedine]

Just a bump for this subject, in hope dev see it.

 

[Narr666]

Sorry, couldn´t resist to add some things I thought about the last days.

In my post, I speak heavily about the "good" guys, but there are many ways for the hateful, militaristic ones as well. For a Xenophobe, a Migration treaty that affects your neighbour, where fox lives next to fungus and has a relationship to a plantoid would of course be a pure nightmare. So this would be easily the parallel to a slaver law. When you are working with Happiness/ Influence hits, that could be the way to go. A militarist would be annoied, when his pacifist allies don´t spent enough for their military and could than get the happiness / influence hit, when the allies fleet strength is significally lower than his (he would see it as unfair, his people die while the other ones "play" happy world). What to do? "Demand" it through diplomacy or simply show him the "real world" and turn him into a militarist.

No, I am getting close to ask to much, but allow me to do it anyway: This would be a far more interesting reason to support factions of another empire, even through minerals, energy or influence (and the rebel could build ships with them!!!): Not only to weaken your rival, but to change him. Wanna see the neighbour becoming militarist? Support the militarist faction. For the "more-gamers-than-storytellers girls and guys", mechanics and tactics wise, you got many reasons to change another empires ethics even now. Estrange him from his allies or getting him as your ally for example. You don´t even need the influence / happiness hit to do it.

Additionally, think about the (in my opinion unnessasary) victory conditions. You got "Dominance", maybe a Science Victory AND the Victory that ALL Empires share at least one Ethic. I think, here you have enough wants and desires for every mood and playstyles.

Let me also add, that, if the Happiness/ Influence hit mechanic is not well beloved, you can also do it through opinion hits (although I would prefere the hit-mechanic to pressure a bit).

I must stress that I don´t wanna see Stellris being different, nor do I hope, that I project to much on it. But have you played Crusader Kings without at least thinking one about getting old, about your ambitions, your desires and faults and how you dealt with them in the last years/decades? I sure, have done that a dozen times. I caught myself doing atrocious things and thinking: But yeah, he deserved it. That´s depth in a game. And only tweaking 2-3 things would get us that depth, that is already in the game, but buried.

Moral Ambiguity is a Paradox Speciality (ever tried to sleep with and then kill your sister? Than you know what I mean), so I would like to see that no ethic is somehow "better". "You have no right" says the Xenophobe,"to tell me how I do things. We lived 10,000 years on our planet and tried loving everyone - didn´t work out." "Without spiritual guidance, society falls apart. That brought as the great ash war 300 years ago" says the Spiritualist. Who could blame them for their experiences of thousand years world history?
(Disclaimer: Author is Xenophile, Materialistic and Pacifist).

Wouldn´t it be exciting, would Stellaris provoke these thoughts? Without even changing that much and still be a fun game?

Got carried away again, but that´s how fans are, I guess.

Good night and keep on gaming,

Dennis

 

[The_Meme_Man]

I always thought a key focus of Stellaris was the life. Most other space games focus on weapons or science, maybe politics occasionally, but rarely the people themselves. Stellaris looks to be leaning here, and it should go all in.

This picture sums up what i mean (had no cite, so cannot credit artist. He/she made some other cool related paintings)

Events make this game too. I would be happy with current mechanics even if we were filled to the brim with story events. From big galactic events to even a small, insignificant citizen. Only one of my games so far had cool events (presentients, underground civ, tree of life, etc only in one game)

 

[Ventessel]

As an added bonus, more dynamic factions and deep interactions within empires would act as a natural "anti-blobbing" mechanism to balance the massive empires against the smaller ones.

 

[Szkeptik]

Wanted to make a thread like this but you already made a much better version of it.

I'd just like to add that expansion of trade as in civilian trade routes and all that comes with that would go a LONG way to making the galaxy feel more alive. What makes Distant Worlds so immersive IMO is that your empire actually looks like this busy place teeming with life and opportunity and you feel like a warden of this system, not just some faceless guy pushing chess pieces around.

Another area is intelligence and spying. There is so much that could be done there! Just think of the faction system we already have, and all the possible interactions a good intelligence system could have there! Instead of the "push button 1 or button 2 to decrease faction scariness" we have now...

Also, a massive expansion of possible traits and skills is also required, because right now there isn't too much there. Only a dozen or so positive and negative traits to chose from on start, and the skills your leaders acquire are also taken from a rather small pool. This makes different playthroughs less diverse than they could be.

 

[Grattons]

For me I don't want to play against "Humans in alien costumes". Aliens are Alien. What would you think about male lions having a "pride" of females ? Would you go to war because for them its the natural order, but for humans its not ? Does anyone consider how many ants are destroyed when they put a road in ? Nope. They are alien and interfere with our "right to live" as we would have it. When you put aliens in a game you need to throw out any "Human" base preconceived ideas. I have played thru all iterations of EU, and all but the last HOI, as well as many other paradox games.

I understand the want/need for the game to play out as humans would like it to.

This game is not supposed to be about human relations, valuations, or beliefs of what is right or wrong. This game is about Aliens. When a Queen Tyranid/Zerg/whatever decides they need the space you are standing on, no amount of belief/thoughts/considerations have any place in the coming war. Their decision is based on thoughts only similar species can even guess at. Consider humans for instance, even among one race there is vast spaces for misunderstanding and wrongful interpretations of why other humans chose to do what they do. Once you mix in aliens EVERYTHING about relationships you know is now null and void.

Aliens may consider you food to be eaten, a natural virus to be eradicated, or an ant colony in the way of their highway. And you should never, ever be able to understand why since we don't have their brains or their growth environment or beliefs, or religion, or whatever it is that drives them. We don't want another game where human mores and beliefs control the course of alien actions. That would simply be "Humans in Alien costumes".

 

[Ventessel]

For me I don't want to play against "Humans in alien costumes". Aliens are Alien. What would you think about male lions having a "pride" of females ? Would you go to war because for them its the natural order, but for humans its not ? Does anyone consider how many ants are destroyed when they put a road in ? Nope. They are alien and interfere with our "right to live" as we would have it. When you put aliens in a game you need to throw out any "Human" base preconceived ideas. I have played thru all iterations of EU, and all but the last HOI, as well as many other paradox games.

I understand the want/need for the game to play out as humans would like it to.

This game is not supposed to be about human relations, valuations, or beliefs of what is right or wrong. This game is about Aliens. When a Queen Tyranid/Zerg/whatever decides they need the space you are standing on, no amount of belief/thoughts/considerations have any place in the coming war. Their decision is based on thoughts only similar species can even guess at. Consider humans for instance, even among one race there is vast spaces for misunderstanding and wrongful interpretations of why other humans chose to do what they do. Once you mix in aliens EVERYTHING about relationships you know is now null and void.

Aliens may consider you food to be eaten, a natural virus to be eradicated, or an ant colony in the way of their highway. And you should never, ever be able to understand why since we don't have their brains or their growth environment or beliefs, or religion, or whatever it is that drives them. We don't want another game where human mores and beliefs control the course of alien actions. That would simply be "Humans in Alien costumes".

Good point, but there is a scale of 'alienness'. There would be species which you have a very difficult, if not impossible time relating to, whereas there could be some who you manage to reach a mutual understanding with.

It's not too different than the various cultures on earth, except that there can obviously be even more extreme variation between groups and some might not ever be able or willing to understand the other.

However, in Stellaris, there is at least the implication the mutual understanding is possible because of the apparent existence of a "universal translator" or at least the capacity to interpret the communication of all other aliens.

 

[Grattons]

Good point, but there is a scale of 'alienness'. There would be species which you have a very difficult, if not impossible time relating to, whereas there could be some who you manage to reach a mutual understanding with.

It's not too different than the various cultures on earth, except that there can obviously be even more extreme variation between groups and some might not ever be able or willing to understand the other.

However, in Stellaris, there is at least the implication the mutual understanding is possible because of the apparent existence of a "universal translator" or at least the capacity to interpret the communication of all other aliens.

A universal translator does not guarantee relations that will share any common basis. Try forming a relationship with a Tree or a Fish. Even if they are intelligent their entire system of thought is going to be totally different than human norms. Even if you take warhammer 40k races, they communicate but almost never cooperate, unless they are using the other races to accomplish what they want. Try communicating with a hive mind, Be it the Borg (cybernetic) or Tyranid (Biology based) they will both have the same message for you. Prepare to be consumed, until you can prove we have a reason to consider you more than an obstacle. Look at virtually any science fiction, whether book based or movie based, whatever the source, you will find many many other life forms that don't consider "diplomacy" as anything useful or even to think about.

Having mutual communication simply opens up the "Where is their thinking coming from ?" when they say "Prepare to cease to exist" or "Prepare to be consumed/eradicated. Not everything is something to be reasoned with. Or persuaded. How many earth bound species would love to have been able to talk to humans and say "What do you think you are doing to us/our environment ?". But I suspect just like many civilizations\nations\governments that have come and gone over time, even earthbound species would have succumbed to the need for human expansion. Being able to talk to us would not have stopped us from taking over our world.

Making a game about aliens should be about alien ways and races. Not fitting them all into human norms. Then they all become "Humans in alien costumes" or "Civilization in space", or "Europa Universalis in space". The point I hope was for them to create a game that would not be a transference of the same thought processes to a different map background, and make another game similar to what has come before. I really don't want to play "Victoria in space". There is already Paradox games I own that do just that on an earth map.

 

[Ventessel]

A universal translator does not guarantee relations that will share any common basis. Try forming a relationship with a Tree or a Fish. Even if they are intelligent their entire system of thought is going to be totally different than human norms. Even if you take warhammer 40k races, they communicate but almost never cooperate, unless they are using the other races to accomplish what they want. Try communicating with a hive mind, Be it the Borg (cybernetic) or Tyranid (Biology based) they will both have the same message for you. Prepare to be consumed, until you can prove we have a reason to consider you more than an obstacle. Look at virtually any science fiction, whether book based or movie based, whatever the source, you will find many many other life forms that don't consider "diplomacy" as anything useful or even to think about.

Having mutual communication simply opens up the "Where is their thinking coming from ?" when they say "Prepare to cease to exist" or "Prepare to be consumed/eradicated. Not everything is something to be reasoned with. Or persuaded. How many earth bound species would love to have been able to talk to humans and say "What do you think you are doing to us/our environment ?". But I suspect just like many civilizations\nations\governments that have come and gone over time, even earthbound species would have succumbed to the need for human expansion. Being able to talk to us would not have stopped us from taking over our world.

Making a game about aliens should be about alien ways and races. Not fitting them all into human norms. Then they all become "Humans in alien costumes" or "Civilization in space", or "Europa Universalis in space". The point I hope was for them to create a game that would not be a transference of the same thought processes to a different map background, and make another game similar to what has come before. I really don't want to play "Victoria in space". There is already Paradox games I own that do just that on an earth map.

I understand what you're saying, but that doesn't necessarily guarantee all aliens are going to inherently and unequivocally dedicated to the destruction and absorption of all other life in the galaxy. That's just one possibility.

Quite frankly, it would make a very boring game, but if you'd like to play it then just make a mod that disables all but the most rudimentary diplomacy options and automatically sets relations to -200 upon first contact.

Furthermore, at the risk of sounding rude, Stellaris is not a game about aliens. It is a game about exploring a procedurally generated galaxy populated with interesting things to interact with. Among these things are alien species who will form empires and interact with you. Some will hate you, some will want to enslave you, some will be open to learning about and communicating with you, and some will ignore you until you present an obstacle.

 

[Grattons]

"Furthermore, at the risk of sounding rude, Stellaris is not a game about aliens. It is a game about exploring a procedurally generated galaxy populated with interesting things to interact with."

So for you its basically "Sid M's Civilization in space". A different map, and a different company. The other aliens are basically stand ins for other human nations. They look different, but are really just humans in disguise, driven by human based drives. Been there, done that. Was hoping for something new and different. Not just a "Sandbox for human play through".

I imagined trying something totally different from the human experience.

 

[The_Meme_Man]

Regardless if Stellaris is or is not about aliens, it should be. Every game is just Civ in space otherwise, very few, if any, really allow the people to tell the story of their "people". Regardless of how alien they are, they are still "people". Those "people" may have a different value (to some, "people" are cheaper than timber, to others it would be unthinkable to lose a life in a war). However, all those "people" have stories that need to be told. I could tolerate lackluster warfare and raw diplomacy if cultural exchange and galactic sociology become well polished foci.

Humans alone have varied greatly between cultures. While we definitely cannot comprehend how alien a culture could be without firsthand witnessing one, we are imaginative enough to conceive of cultures that are very "alien" to us. Blue and orange morality should definitely be considered when making the galactic community, but we can take a lot of inspiration from the more unusual characteristics of the various human cultures.

Paradox has always seemed more of an RPG than a grand strategy for me because there isn't really any ultimate goal that isn't just decided by the player. You cannot "win" EU4 or CKII or Vicky II really. You can "win" HoI 4, but that is just "winning" the war, and losing with the greatest contribution might be considered a greater victory. You cannot "win" Stellaris either. Players just rollplay as a civilization, thinking "Germany discovered the New World," "Buddhism secured itself as a popular faith in Europe", "I have the longest lived dynasty in Egypt", "Ethiopia holds a monopoly on aircraft and fine clothing production", etc.

Stellaris should be nothing else than an "alien civ RPG". Do you want explore the galaxy and find its wonders (not enough events and anomalies)? Do you want intervene in the affairs of primitives for giggles (primitive interactions are too limited, probably due to the rarity of events involving passive and especially active study)? Do you want to be that enigmatic empire few know of but all fear (there is no real fear in this game, no aliens begging for mercy and locking their children up at night, and diplomatic conversation is too lackluster)? Do you have great tales of courage and valor coming from your many planetary invasions (planetary invasions aren't depicted as big of a deal as they should be. Homeworld invasions should on the level of "Battle of Berlin"-important)? You are religious, but who are the great deities you praise, and rituals you have followed for generations (Spiritualism is nothing more than an ethos at the moment)?

Pretty much ALL of these are solved by events. Loads and loads of events. I know they will come, but they should definitely be top priority. The galaxy is big and unknown.

 

[Dalinski]

The developers would really go a long way to broadening race personalities.

Evangelizing Zealots and Racial Purifiers are interesting encounter but could be even more interesting.

You see some tiny affects when you deny Galactic Explorers out border access.

But these are just hints at what they could be. Each race could have 3+ agendas, hidden agendas and in an anomaly like manner play these out making them feel one step closer to being more interactive and alive. An entire set of triggers could be created and distributed randomly to really make diplomacy shine and make each game unique.....

Imagine.

 

[Narr666]

Hello girls and guys,

the "aliens are aliens" discussion is very interesting and I indeed would maybe buy a game where you perceive alien life in a way you elaborated. I also am of the same opinion that Aliens should be presented in this way in modern science fiction.

But my presented ideas had the implication, of what could be realistically changed in Stellaris, to make the game we play more interesting. I had tried to present ideas that are easy to implement and would not change the very base of the game. Everything else are neat ideas, but I fear at this point, we won´t see them.

I personally find it unrealistic that the base of the game we have in front of us could be changed so drastically to reflect the "aliens are aliens" idea. Sure, you can i.e. give some unique traits, but concerning this game was a huge hit commercially, a total polish will not happen, both of course of resources and the PR aspect of it. So it is humans in rubber suits, if we like it or not. As I elaborated, the core of the aliens are in Stellaris their three ethics, that´s why I expanded on that and not on other things, even though I would love other things more.

So, without the intentions of being rude or something, I think at this stage radical ideas are maybe interesting and engaging discussions, but I am convinced they will remain fruitless.

Espionage and trade is another thing. I am convinced that we will see them, and they are also things Stellaris can learn from other Paradox games.

That the discussion developed into these rather unexpected direction was naturally my fault, because I was too philosophical and not concrede enough. Allow me to do that now, in this paradox forum style list:

The most important
1) Give empires an opinion and/or influence and/or happiness hit, when a neighboring empire does something that´s contrary to their ethics: Individualists despice slavery, Xenophiles despice Purging, Xenphobes despice Migration treatment etc. Don´t have to be much, but enough to let the player be bugged like his people would be bugged. Something unnerving.
Also, give a pop up to inform the player, when the not-desired thing happened by your neighbor.


War Goals

2) Allow War goals for policy changes to be extended in years for Warscore.

3)Allow War goals to change one empire ethic. Give this option a 99 point wargoal, so this is your only one.


Factions

4) Allow factions to desire one ethic change. You can "Give them what they want" and change it.

5) Allow faction to desire policy changes.

6) Allow factions to desire a leader change

7) Allow factions to desire a government change

8) Allow government change from the player for a huge Influence cost. Let factions spawn that want to change it back


Diplomacy

9) Give Diplomatic option : Threaten to change policy

10) Give Trade Treaty option: Change policy


Victory condition

11) Erase victory conditions. OR Give Victory condition: "All Empires share one Ethic" and "Science Victory".

11) And in the long run: Give through espionage an action to reveal other empires factions. You can fund them, than.

And, naturally... give factions ships.


Keep on gaming,

Dennis

 

[Dalinski]

Good stuff Nar666