What on earth are irenic monarchies, democracies, protectorates?

  • We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.

Seriphyn

Corporal
68 Badges
Jun 9, 2013
44
87
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Cities: Skylines - Natural Disasters
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Stellaris
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Cities in Motion 2
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Magicka
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Cities: Skylines - Mass Transit
  • BATTLETECH
  • Surviving Mars
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Cities: Skylines - Green Cities
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Stellaris Sign-up
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Cities: Skylines
The issue is trying to figure out its flavour. The Irenic governments are all upgrades of the pacifist governments. So moral democracy becomes Irenic democracy. What does this mean? Is this a transformation of, say, a neutral Scandinavian style democracy to a futuristic state that has peace and unity almost obsessively written into its constitutional format? Irenic protectorate is the upgrade of peaceful bureaucracy, and the adjectives there are essentially synonyms. The fact that the word "irenic" is used for all three governments implies that this might be an in-universe ideology specific to Stellaris (akin to Maoism, or Reaganomics), that worships peace and unity. So, whereas an enlightened monarchy and moral democracy just so happen to be aligned in both being pacifists, their upgraded forms mean they literally share the same ideology, just different government formats. Capital "I" basically.

Aaaah, I guess we'll find out when the game is released and we get the flavour text!
 

Verenti

Lord Protector
153 Badges
Jul 8, 2003
1.666
1.215
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron III Collection
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • King Arthur II
  • Knights of Pen and Paper +1 Edition
  • Leviathan: Warships
  • The Kings Crusade
  • Lost Empire - Immortals
  • Magicka
  • Majesty 2
  • March of the Eagles
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Naval War: Arctic Circle
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Europa Universalis: Rome
  • Sengoku
  • Sword of the Stars
  • Sword of the Stars II
  • Supreme Ruler 2020
  • The Showdown Effect
  • Victoria 2
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Deus Vult
  • Cities in Motion 2
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Commander: Conquest of the Americas
  • Darkest Hour
  • Cities in Motion
  • Diplomacy
  • Dungeonland
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
What's the ethos opposed to irenicism?
/s

Except Martial and Military are ... the same word. Martial is just the adjective form of military, whence comes martial law. So Martial Democracy succeeding Military Republic is just uncreative. That irenicism is pacifistic does not excuse the unimaginative naming of either it nor its counter-parts.
 
  • 2
Reactions:

blakh

Grammar Blorg
32 Badges
Jun 14, 2012
115
233
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall Deluxe edition
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall
  • Imperator: Rome Sign Up
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Imperator: Rome Deluxe Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • BATTLETECH
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall Premium edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Magicka: Wizard Wars Founder Wizard
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall Season pass
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall - Revelations
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
Except Martial and Military are ... the same word. Martial is just the adjective form of military, whence comes martial law. So Martial Democracy succeeding Military Republic is just uncreative. That irenicism is pacifistic does not excuse the unimaginative naming of either it nor its counter-parts.

Wrong. The adjective form of military is military, whence comes military state. Military is derived from Latin militaris, "military", from miles, "soldier". Martial is derived from Latin martialis, from Mars, the god of war. Irrespective of etymology, military means "pertaining to the army", martial means "pertaining to warfare or battle". Martial law is law as practiced when at war, not as practiced in the military. Martial arts aren't military arts.

So I would assume that a martial government is one that always acts under martial law, probably nominally always considering themselves at war. A military government would just be a junta.
 
  • 3
  • 1
Reactions:

Verenti

Lord Protector
153 Badges
Jul 8, 2003
1.666
1.215
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron III Collection
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • King Arthur II
  • Knights of Pen and Paper +1 Edition
  • Leviathan: Warships
  • The Kings Crusade
  • Lost Empire - Immortals
  • Magicka
  • Majesty 2
  • March of the Eagles
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Naval War: Arctic Circle
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Europa Universalis: Rome
  • Sengoku
  • Sword of the Stars
  • Sword of the Stars II
  • Supreme Ruler 2020
  • The Showdown Effect
  • Victoria 2
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Deus Vult
  • Cities in Motion 2
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Commander: Conquest of the Americas
  • Darkest Hour
  • Cities in Motion
  • Diplomacy
  • Dungeonland
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
Wrong. The adjective form of military is military, whence comes military state. Military is derived from Latin militaris, "military", from miles, "soldier". Martial is derived from Latin martialis, from Mars, the god of war. Irrespective of etymology, military means "pertaining to the army", martial means "pertaining to warfare or battle". Martial law is law as practiced when at war, not as practiced in the military. Martial arts aren't military arts.

So I would assume that a martial government is one that always acts under martial law, probably nominally always considering themselves at war. A military government would just be a junta.

Martial Law is not restricted to a state of war: e.g. 1970 in Canada. Also court martials: those happen also when a country isn't at war. In modern usage, the word military is used as an adjective, but it's clearly a noun in its inception. Almost hypocritically, I will point out that the actual adjective of military -- militant, has fallen out of common usage as such, being replaced, in general by "martial". Yes, it refers to Mars, but what you've forgetting is that all soldiers are "men of war"; They're all in martial professions. The act of committing war is linguistically inseparable from the act of being a soldier.
 

blakh

Grammar Blorg
32 Badges
Jun 14, 2012
115
233
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall Deluxe edition
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall
  • Imperator: Rome Sign Up
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Imperator: Rome Deluxe Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • BATTLETECH
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall Premium edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Magicka: Wizard Wars Founder Wizard
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall Season pass
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall - Revelations
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
Martial Law is not restricted to a state of war: e.g. 1970 in Canada. Also court martials: those happen also when a country isn't at war.

Well yes, and you don't need to be married for marital law to apply. The question of martial being an adjective form of war is quite unrelated to the question of under what circumstances exactly it applies. But check for translations of martial law; most of them will be exactly 'law of war'. Of course nifty politicians will impose it whenever it suits them, not only when it is linguistically applicable.

In modern usage, the word military is used as an adjective, but it's clearly a noun in its inception.

Well, whatever is the inception of a word anyways? Musical seems to be pretty noun-y, but of course it is an adjective form in Latin. Military stems from a Latin adjective; it is borrowed from French militaire, and I can't seem to find out whether that also was a noun at the moment it was borrowed into English, but surely began as an adjective. It is nowadays used very often as a noun, and English doesn't distinguish adjectives and nouns in any clear manner, so we really have no idea how to find out whether military is primarily an adjective or noun these days, but evidence seems to point to it beginning its life as an adjective.

Almost hypocritically, I will point out that the actual adjective of military -- militant, has fallen out of common usage as such, being replaced, in general by "martial". Yes, it refers to Mars, but what you've forgetting is that all soldiers are "men of war"; They're all in martial professions. The act of committing war is linguistically inseparable from the act of being a soldier.

Militant actually derives form the Latin present participle militans (with stem militant-), (imagine a present participle like English gerund -ing), from Latin milito 'to be (or act as) a soldier, to make war'. So in Latin you have

militaris - of or pertaining to the military
martialis - of or pertaining to Mars, by extension to warfare
militans - being a soldier, acting as a soldier, making war

Of course, all their meanings are extremely close to each other, and will often be interchangeable, so there's no real way of clearly demarcating one from the other, especially in English, where their meanings have changed (militant meaning something like warmongering, or aggressive). Also it's never correct to argue for systematic relations between words (such as A is the adjective form of B) from etymology; went is not related to go etymologically; still it's a form of it. So in the end we are reduced to speakers' intuitions. To me - as a foreigner - military sounds like it relates to the body of the military whereas martial sounds like it relates to the state, or the business, of war; that's why I thought it's incorrect to call martial the adjective of military. However, if the natives agree on this actually being the case, there is little left to argue about.
 
  • 3
Reactions: