What new tags should we see in vic 3

[Blindbohemian]

A tag for non-monarchist Ottomans that nevertheless keeps its territories intact, perhaps. Obviously "Ottoman Republic" would be strange but "Turkey" doesn't make sense for a multi-ethnic republic either. "Eastern Mediterranean Community"?

A “Turco-Arab Federation” was an actual thing proposed in the 1890s. Alternatively a republic of Anatolia and the Levant might work?

 

[Bradley Hutson]

I would like to suggest some pan-national tags and flags:

Africa (united or nearly united Africa tag)

Arab Union/Federation (united or nearly united Arab tag)

Europe (united or nearly united Europe tag)

Scandinavia (united or nearly united Scandinavia tag)

Panslavia (united or nearly united Slav tag)

Greater Turkestan (united or nearly united Turkic peoples tag)

Lesser Turkestan (united or nearly united Central Asian Turkic peoples tag)

Bolivaria (united or nearly united Hispanophone South America)

Nusantara (united or nearly united Maritime Southeast Asia)

 

[Grim Deadman]

A “Turco-Arab Federation” was an actual thing proposed in the 1890s.

Is there any place I could read more about these plans? Google gave me nothing.

 

[Arch-Heretek]

-Rio Grande
-New York (Basically Manhattan Commune but not so small and insignificant and likely to pop up if the civil war goes badly. Might override the Manhattan tag)
-Lakota
-Louisiane
-Floride
-Nouvelle France (the previous three basically account for French adventurism in America)
-Tecumeh's Confederacy (or successor)
-New Afrika

 

[wilcoxchar]

What distinct cultures do you exactly mean? As far as I know cultural divisions between lands were not even an issue.

The game in II Reich was about level of autonomy of particular political entities, like kingdom of Bavaria, and amount of their representatives to Bundestag. Thats why distinctions between different "germanies" should rather be centered around unifier influence, dominant entity within Bundestag

And you would be wrong. Again, a large part of German nationalism at the time was creating a unified German cultural identity. Mid-19th century movements like German romanticism or recalling Goethe, Kant, and others were done in large part to invent a unified German philosophical and literary tradition in reaction to the encroachment of French ideas during the Napoleonic era, and were later promoted by Prussia to invent the idea of a German cultural tradition that could compete with that of Austria and Vienna for influence. As part of the effort to make a Prussian dominated German identity, cultural traditions that were now within post-Napoleonic Prussian influence were adopted, such as Grimm's Fairy Tales despite drawing mainly on Hessian or Westphalian folk traditions, in the promotion of people in Weimar like Goethe and Schiller or Hegel and Humboldt in Berlin as the German national philosophical and scientific tradition, or in the debate over the German musical schools with the distinction being made between the "German" line from Bach to Beethoven to then contemporaries such as Wagner as being distinct from that of say Mozart with more Austrian upbringing and influence, or even attempts to adopt composers from other cultures at the time like Liszt as "German" composers. A lot of this creation of a German national identity was promoted by the liberal nationalists early on, but despite the opposition from Prussia on ideological grounds was promoted on cultural grounds as it created an effectively Prussian sphere/North German sense of what a unified "German" cultural identity was. You also saw at this time a heavy focus of German cultural output on glorifying the Rhineland (Die Wacht am Rhein being the most famous) explicitly as a reaction to the Napoleonic idea of the Rhine as the French natural border and to place the Rhineland as distinctly in the German (and again, Prussian-dominated) cultural sphere, rather than having a distinct cultural identity as it had in the HRE period.

You also saw a backlash against this during the 19th century, in places like Bavaria with the kings attempting to promote Munich as a cultural center and creating a unique Bavarian cultural identity, or of course in Vienna and Austria attempting to maintain its presence as the dominant German cultural city against the rise of cities like Berlin or Frankfurt and then in the late 19th and early 20th centuries by Bavaria and Austria to maintain their distinct cultural identities against an expanding Prussian-dominated singular German identity.

I would say there should be either four or five distinct cultures in Germany at the start of the game. "North German" to denote the Prussian sphere, Bavarian or South German for at least Bavaria and Wurttemberg, Austrian in Austria and part of the Sudetenland, and Rhinelander in the Rhine area, at the very least the Left Bank and Moselle, to reflect the area with the most lingering French influence post-Napoleon and the region being rather distinct culturally with only recent incorporation into Prussia and to reflect the Lorraine part of Alsace-Lorraine. Baden could either be Rhinelander or Bavarian/South German, or possibly Alsatian if that is made a separate culture from Rhinelander, which it certainly could be but would be okay as Rhinelander if it's limited to four cultures.

This is also of course just including the areas that were historically considered part of a Greater Germany at the time and not including Swiss which should be a separate culture.

 

[Blindbohemian]

Is there any place I could read more about these plans? Google gave me nothing.

Eugene Rogan gives it some space in Fall of the Ottomans and I believe also The Arabs.

 

[Negru Voda]

A tag for non-monarchist Ottomans that nevertheless keeps its territories intact, perhaps. Obviously "Ottoman Republic" would be strange but "Turkey" doesn't make sense for a multi-ethnic republic either. "Eastern Mediterranean Community"?

A “Turco-Arab Federation” was an actual thing proposed in the 1890s. Alternatively a republic of Anatolia and the Levant might work?

I'm liking the Republic of Anatolia and the Levant - it makes reference to the heartlands.

Asia Minor Republic?
Rum Republic / Republic of Rum?

Or maybe Ottomanist Republic - I think I read somewhere that Ottomanism was an attempt to create a common identity loyal to the idea of belonging to the Ottoman Empire.

 

[Kaspar Osraige]

I'm liking the Republic of Anatolia and the Levant - it makes reference to the heartlands.

Asia Minor Republic?
Rum Republic / Republic of Rum?

Or maybe Ottomanist Republic - I think I read somewhere that Ottomanism was an attempt to create a common identity loyal to the idea of belonging to the Ottoman Empire.

Well, quoting Turkish school curriculum during the fall of the Ottoman Empire, there were many ideas among Turkish intelligentsia for how to stop it. The liberal idea was Ottomanism, the idea of creating an Ottoman identity containing peoples of all religions and ethnicities from Bosnia to Basra. The religious idea was Islamism, saying we already lost the Jews and Christians, that Ottoman Empire should be an Islam based empire containing Turks, Kurds and Arabs. The nationalist idea was Turkism/Turkish nationalism, the idea of creating a Turkish ethnostate to replace the Ottomans. (Here I stop quoting the school curriculum) This last idea later got in contact with Russian/Tatar Pan Turanism and developed further into lots of branches. There was pan-Turkism and Anatolianism mainly. Kemalism was Anatolianist French style civic nationalism combined with petty bourgeoisie-democratic policies like hardline laicism and state socialism. After Arabs and Balkan peoples revolted, the other two ideas fell out of fashion and Turkish nationalism's branches emerged as the public opinion. Up until Islamists got back with Erbakan's party and İBDA at least.

To get back to the game and leave the sociopolitics of my country behind, I think a republicanized, liberalized Ottoman Empire can be represented as the republican version of Ottoman tag. And representing Turkey as just republican Ottomans leaves this possibility as well as the chance of a non-Ottoman(it was named after the dynasty after all) monarchy out. Make Ottomans and Turkey a separate tag and the issue is solved. Besides, Turkey coexisted and fought against the Ottoman Empire during our independence war(1919-1922).

 

[MinhowMinhow]

Banat

 

[The Goldfinch]

And you would be wrong. Again, a large part of German nationalism at the time was creating a unified German cultural identity. Mid-19th century movements like German romanticism or recalling Goethe, Kant, and others were done in large part to invent a unified German philosophical and literary tradition in reaction to the encroachment of French ideas during the Napoleonic era, and were later promoted by Prussia to invent the idea of a German cultural tradition that could compete with that of Austria and Vienna for influence. As part of the effort to make a Prussian dominated German identity, cultural traditions that were now within post-Napoleonic Prussian influence were adopted, such as Grimm's Fairy Tales despite drawing mainly on Hessian or Westphalian folk traditions, in the promotion of people in Weimar like Goethe and Schiller or Hegel and Humboldt in Berlin as the German national philosophical and scientific tradition, or in the debate over the German musical schools with the distinction being made between the "German" line from Bach to Beethoven to then contemporaries such as Wagner as being distinct from that of say Mozart with more Austrian upbringing and influence, or even attempts to adopt composers from other cultures at the time like Liszt as "German" composers. A lot of this creation of a German national identity was promoted by the liberal nationalists early on, but despite the opposition from Prussia on ideological grounds was promoted on cultural grounds as it created an effectively Prussian sphere/North German sense of what a unified "German" cultural identity was. You also saw at this time a heavy focus of German cultural output on glorifying the Rhineland (Die Wacht am Rhein being the most famous) explicitly as a reaction to the Napoleonic idea of the Rhine as the French natural border and to place the Rhineland as distinctly in the German (and again, Prussian-dominated) cultural sphere, rather than having a distinct cultural identity as it had in the HRE period.

You also saw a backlash against this during the 19th century, in places like Bavaria with the kings attempting to promote Munich as a cultural center and creating a unique Bavarian cultural identity, or of course in Vienna and Austria attempting to maintain its presence as the dominant German cultural city against the rise of cities like Berlin or Frankfurt and then in the late 19th and early 20th centuries by Bavaria and Austria to maintain their distinct cultural identities against an expanding Prussian-dominated singular German identity.

I would say there should be either four or five distinct cultures in Germany at the start of the game. "North German" to denote the Prussian sphere, Bavarian or South German for at least Bavaria and Wurttemberg, Austrian in Austria and part of the Sudetenland, and Rhinelander in the Rhine area, at the very least the Left Bank and Moselle, to reflect the area with the most lingering French influence post-Napoleon and the region being rather distinct culturally with only recent incorporation into Prussia and to reflect the Lorraine part of Alsace-Lorraine. Baden could either be Rhinelander or Bavarian/South German, or possibly Alsatian if that is made a separate culture from Rhinelander, which it certainly could be but would be okay as Rhinelander if it's limited to four cultures.

This is also of course just including the areas that were historically considered part of a Greater Germany at the time and not including Swiss which should be a separate culture.

I rather fail to grasp those gigantic differences between Rheinlander and Bavarian cultures, and to what extent they influenced history.

Instead, I see how prussian dominance within federal state dictated German and world politics. Yeah attempts were made to create one German culture, that would unite all particularities. This should not be a dominant factor in shaping different "germanies"; but rather balance of power between member states, whether there is one unquestioned hegemon, or rather more even balance, and only consequences of this should perhaps cause some cultural shifts

 

[Lambert Simnel]

Would it be appropriate to have tag(s) for the land in Western Germany that Prussia had gained in 1815? Would it be plausible for a power that beats Prussia to detach them?

 

[The Goldfinch]

Would it be appropriate to have tag(s) for the land in Western Germany that Prussia had gained in 1815? Would it be plausible for a power that beats Prussia to detach them?

Definitely, this was even a part of secret negotiations between Austria and Napoleon III, and would be a must have for Austria wanting to take leadership of Germany

 

[The Caesar]

Do you mean, like the Rhine Confederation ? Because that is basically the tag that was formed by Napoléon and that the Prussians basically annexed after the war, leading to them owning a large part of western Germany all of a sudden. I think that the Napoleonic tags might be candidates for revolter tags/smaller unions

 

[Dranok_345]

TUT- Tuaregs united tribes
Cosa Nostra- only available if sicily revolts and gain independence
kafiristan

Why are you booing me i'm right.
Seriously which proposition make you disagree with me ?

 

[Kaspar Osraige]

Why are you booing me i'm right.
Seriously which proposition make you disagree with me ?

Well, Kafiristan is a cool idea but I think it is now Nuristan, Tuareg state is good too but mafia would never come together and found a state. It would beat much of the point of mafia

 

[wilcoxchar]

Do you mean, like the Rhine Confederation ? Because that is basically the tag that was formed by Napoléon and that the Prussians basically annexed after the war, leading to them owning a large part of western Germany all of a sudden. I think that the Napoleonic tags might be candidates for revolter tags/smaller unions

The Confederation of the Rhine did not include any of what became the Prussian Rhineland except part of the Grand Duchy of Berg. The area that became the Prussian Rhineland was previously directly annexed to France.

 

[Dranok_345]

Well, Kafiristan is a cool idea but I think it is now Nuristan, Tuareg state is good too but mafia would never come together and found a state. It would beat much of the point of mafia

yep kafiristan is nownuristan because it was islamised in 1895 so i think it could be fun to play them.
but for the mafia i think it could be a cool thing (it would be more like an easter egg)

 

[wilcoxchar]

Would it be appropriate to have tag(s) for the land in Western Germany that Prussia had gained in 1815? Would it be plausible for a power that beats Prussia to detach them?

Yes, since it actually happened briefly in the interwar period.

Rhenish Republic - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I rather fail to grasp those gigantic differences between Rheinlander and Bavarian cultures, and to what extent they influenced history.

Instead, I see how prussian dominance within federal state dictated German and world politics. Yeah attempts were made to create one German culture, that would unite all particularities. This should not be a dominant factor in shaping different "germanies"; but rather balance of power between member states, whether there is one unquestioned hegemon, or rather more even balance, and only consequences of this should perhaps cause some cultural shifts

Then to put it bluntly you fail to understand the Prussian cultural nationalism that lay behind historical German unification and fail to understand the cultural and social aspect of nationalist and pan-nationalist movements in general.

German culture was created out of Prussian culture and Prussian dominance, but German unification by no means had to go that way. An Austrian-dominated Germany, a Bavarian-dominated Germany, a Prussian-dominated Germany, a Rhenish-dominated Germany, or even a multicultural Germany if you can manage that should look and feel different from each other if any of those should happen in a particular game of Victoria. And since there are POPs that already shape the demographic makeup of a country, there's no need for separate tags to represent this, it can just depend on which culture has the most power in terms of POPs and interest groups.

 

[The Goldfinch]

Yes, since it actually happened briefly in the interwar period.

Rhenish Republic - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Then to put it bluntly you fail to understand the Prussian cultural nationalism that lay behind historical German unification and fail to understand the cultural and social aspect of nationalist and pan-nationalist movements in general.

German culture was created out of Prussian culture and Prussian dominance, but German unification by no means had to go that way. An Austrian-dominated Germany, a Bavarian-dominated Germany, a Prussian-dominated Germany, a Rhenish-dominated Germany, or even a multicultural Germany if you can manage that should look and feel different from each other if any of those should happen in a particular game of Victoria. And since there are POPs that already shape the demographic makeup of a country, there's no need for separate tags to represent this, it can just depend on which culture has the most power in terms of POPs and interest groups.

And how would you achieve austrian dominated Germany if there was no more than 6-7 million austrian "pops" In 1848? Obviously austrian "land" Has to be relevant factor here, as a political entity within federal state, not its counts of particular pops

 

[Blindbohemian]

I'm liking the Republic of Anatolia and the Levant - it makes reference to the heartlands.

To be honest I would think the best thing is just for each region to have its own tag: Anatolia or Asia Minor (I'd say Anatolia, though, in line with Turkish Anadolu; I don't know why a Turkish-dominated state would use 'Asia Minor'), Syria, Iraq... Possibly a formable "Levant"? That's a French word, though. "Mashriq"? Do we have any examples of states that dominated the Mashriq and what they called themselves? This feels a bit like proposing a formable "Maghreb", i.e stupid.

Then if the Ottoman collapse results in an Anatolia-centred polity dominating the Middle East it would just be Anatolia, or if it was dominated by Baghdad it might be called Iraq, or from Damascus Syria. That's a bit odd too, though, isn't it. I particularly dislike "Iraq", it seems like a modern formation. How about Jazira?

Realistically I would think the most likely outcome of some kind of Ottoman reorganisation into a republican structure would just call itself Turkey (bear in mind modern Turkey controls a swathe of Kurdistan and historical Syria, but still calls itself Turkey). "Turkey" referred to the Turks, yes, but it was also a fairly generic regional term. Such a state would still be centred on Istanbul and possibly Ankara, after all.

I really like the idea of an option for the Young Turks' "Ottomanism" project to succeed and ultimately produce an "Ottoman Republic".

I don't know what a good name for the proposed (and much fought-for) Turco-Arab dual state would be. Possibly given that it was modelled after Austria-Hungary, Turkey-Arabia? Does anyone know what the Hashemite Arabian kingdom promised in 1916 was going to be called? The various communications I've read in my studies just refer to the "Arab Kingdom", so I guess "Arabia" (that's what the merger of Nejd and Hejaz ultimately got called as well--perhaps "Arabia" in Vic3 can finally be called <dynastyname> Arabia, in line with Saudi?

Is there any place I could read more about these plans? Google gave me nothing.

Another good place to look is Michael Provence, "Ottoman modernity, colonialism, and insurgency in the interwar Arab East", Int. J. Middle East Stud., 2011, pp. 205-225. He doesn't get deep into the Arabist proposal for a dual state (it's not my immediate area, sorry I can't be more help) but it's a great treatment of how misguided the common narrative of the Arabs being "liberated" from Ottoman rule post-WWI is, and how both Turks and Arabs made efforts to knit the Ottoman realm back together in the '20s and '30s.