What Makes the Clausewitz Engine Special?

[yemmlie101]

It's a custom engine built by the development team that is suited to making the type of games they make. Unity and other engines are generic engines that cater for every possible genre of game, but not particularly directly immediately suited to any of them without specific game code to leverage them. Unity needs to be able to be an FPS and a racing game and any other type of game and all its power is directed into being versatile and it's only likely mainstream genres that have any specific functionality already implemented into the engine (e.g. first person cameras, ray casting bullets or whatever for an FPS game). On the other hand the Clausewitz engine has probably a decade of code written for handling world maps, provinces, borders, fancy text placement, the scripting system they use for events, the UI that ties into the scripting system, the tooltips, multiplayer communication/synchronization and a whole host of other things they've worked on to specifically help with development of pausable real-time grand strategy games. All Clausewitz has to ever do is make grand strategy games, and so every part of its DNA is directed towards doing that, and it will have a massive toolbox of 'Grand Strategy' tricks it can do to make that easier. Also the dev team are all extremely familiar with it and that is a big deal too. Also they have 100% complete control, access to everything, and can replace or change any part of it for a particular game's needs. With Unity there are situations where you may find you can't really get into the deep guts of it to make it work the particular way you want and would more often have to compromise and work around the engine instead of making it work for you.

It'd be madness to drop it all at this point and switch to a generic engine in another language, particularly to continue the existing grand strategy series, as it'd essentially nuke all the advancements they have made since the early EU games both graphically and in functionality.

The fact that Stellaris looks so distinct from the other games shows it's versatile enough to break out of being restricted to world maps too.

 

[aruon]

The fact that Stellaris looks so distinct from the other games shows it's versatile enough to break out of being restricted to world maps too.

it's able to break out of it's intended genre as well. Runemaster was a procedurally generated tactical RPG.

 

[IHateThisCo]

they don't own the source material itself, the Song of Ice and Fire book series of which Game of Thrones is the first book (that belongs to GRRM alone). they DO hold the TV rights to the Game of Thrones series, of which anything within the context of GoT is considered derived from as the show is the dominant medium that people pay attention to.
so yes they can sue if they think anyone not licensed is profiting off the GoT IP. that's why they took notice of the AGOT mod, because if paradox was trying to make a direct profit off of the fact that there's a GoT mod for one of their games without having acquired a product license, that would be trademark infringement and require a DMCA takedown of the AGOT mod.

even when HBO was assured there was no under-the-table marketing and the heat died down, PI CEO Fredrik Wester considered just getting a license anyway with GoT being the behemoth that it is.

You are wrong on so many issues.

HBO owning the rights to the GoT TV show does NOT give them ownership of any other derivatives. Only if they are derived from the TV show, and even then it would depend on the specific terms of the contract. Giving away some rights (TV Shows), does not give away the potentially unlimited mix of derivative rights owned by George R. R. Martin.

HBO cannot sue anyone just for profiting off of GoT. There are GoT board games, some of them older than the TV show. Just because they may see popularity or profits due to the success of the show does not give HBO any rights against them. HBO owns rights to the show, and whatever other rights George R. R. Martin has given to them. Any other licensee has its full rights, no matter how it profits from the popularity of the show.

A mod is just that, a mod. HBO can take note of it, but simply because CK is the best platform for making the world in a mod, doesn't give HBO any rights against PI. HBO can force the mod to be taken down, as mods of any copyright works are inherently copyright violations. This, however, gives them no cause of action against PI itself, unless PI were to be doing something specifically in regards to the mod. Simply creating an engine that allows people to make something that violates a copyright, is not itself a copyright violation. No one can sue Microsoft just because something infringing a copyright is written in MS Word. The same goes for software development tools. PI is responsible for the tools, not the content people create with them.

While HBO could stop the mod due to copyright issues; this rarely happens. Its usually good for a product/license if fans are invested enough in it to spend time creating things for it. Its the same reason most fanfiction is allowed to exist. Other than specific rare things (Overwatch hentai), non-profit fan created works, although copyright violations, are allowed to flourish because it tends to be benificial to the license holder in the long term. It maintains interest in the setting, and can bring in new consumers. An enthusiastic fan base is a good fan base.

 

[Careful Plum]

The fact that Stellaris looks so distinct from the other games shows it's versatile enough to break out of being restricted to world maps too.

I don't think Stellaris is as different from the other Clausewitz title as it may seem on the surface. About the only thing that I can see that's really unique is the ability to move your fleets to any arbitrary point on the map (which is still 2 dimensional, for example) - but this is mostly a simple UI thing. I doubt the AI is even capable of moving it's fleets to most places or determine that it should do so (and I don't think that's really necessary).
The rest is really the same: The game simulates entities covering an area (tags) made up of distinct objects (planets/provinces - though you can add "new" objects during gameplay like wormhole stations, also a new feature admittedly). The tags have entities they can move around (fleets and armies), a number of properties (leaders, ideas, technologies etc.), have relationships with each other and all AI is probably done with unitary tags). So pretty similar actually, only the specifics are different.

 

[aruon]

You are wrong on so many issues.

HBO owning the rights to the GoT TV show does NOT give them ownership of any other derivatives. Only if they are derived from the TV show, and even then it would depend on the specific terms of the contract. Giving away some rights (TV Shows), does not give away the potentially unlimited mix of derivative rights owned by George R. R. Martin.

it's that "Only if they are derived from the TV show" part. not very many are going to market to the Song of Ice and Fire crowd when the much more casual Game of Thrones crowd is where the profit is at.

why would GRRM not give away most/all tertiary rights? that would potentially cause issues for licensing. and GRRM himself is a longtime writer for TV shows, so i think he knows what he is doing.

HBO cannot sue anyone just for profiting off of GoT. There are GoT board games, some of them older than the TV show. Just because they may see popularity or profits due to the success of the show does not give HBO any rights against them. HBO owns rights to the show, and whatever other rights George R. R. Martin has given to them. Any other licensee has its full rights, no matter how it profits from the popularity of the show.

and paradox isn't a licensee. if HBO had determined from their POV that paradox were using the AGOT mod to help market CK2, HBO may or may not have had a case worth taking to court anyway, but could potentially force paradox to get a license or face a DMCA takedown.

A mod is just that, a mod. HBO can take note of it, but simply because CK is the best platform for making the world in a mod, doesn't give HBO any rights against PI. HBO can force the mod to be taken down, as mods of any copyright works are inherently copyright violations. This, however, gives them no cause of action against PI itself, unless PI were to be doing something specifically in regards to the mod. Simply creating an engine that allows people to make something that violates a copyright, is not itself a copyright violation. No one can sue Microsoft just because something infringing a copyright is written in MS Word. The same goes for software development tools. PI is responsible for the tools, not the content people create with them.

i know this. the problem as it could have been was that the AGOT mod is based on the PI official forum, in a section behind a paywall (CK2 ownership). if push came to shove and PI didn't disavow AGOT, the ball would be in HBO's court.

and the part about an engine.... umm... duh? PI can't be subject to legal actions because of the clausewitz engine itself. but if only they have overarching official control over something, yes they can ultimately be held liable. regardless of whether or not any action is warranted.


ok now that last part is a HUGE false equivalence that i have to call out. comparing a highly malleable video game which can be altered to recreate a scenario within a copyrighted entity... and spreadsheet software? really? what's next, a Commodore 64 and a pencil?

 

[Kliwarrior]

Another great feature of Clausewitz, is the "event engine". Just think about it: thousands ( >4000 in eu4) events that can fire for more than 1000 "objects" ( courtiers, province, country, planets..) with complex conditions and that are checked teorically every day.
They developed this since the introduction of MTTH concept, in firt CK iirc.

 

[IHateThisCo]

it's that "Only if they are derived from the TV show" part. not very many are going to market to the Song of Ice and Fire crowd when the much more casual Game of Thrones crowd is where the profit is at.

why would GRRM not give away most/all tertiary rights? that would potentially cause issues for licensing. and GRRM himself is a longtime writer for TV shows, so i think he knows what he is doing.



and paradox isn't a licensee. if HBO had determined from their POV that paradox were using the AGOT mod to help market CK2, HBO may or may not have had a case worth taking to court anyway, but could potentially force paradox to get a license or face a DMCA takedown.



i know this. the problem as it could have been was that the AGOT mod is based on the PI official forum, in a section behind a paywall (CK2 ownership). if push came to shove and PI didn't disavow AGOT, the ball would be in HBO's court.

and the part about an engine.... umm... duh? PI can't be subject to legal actions because of the clausewitz engine itself. but if only they have overarching official control over something, yes they can ultimately be held liable. regardless of whether or not any action is warranted.


ok now that last part is a HUGE false equivalence that i have to call out. comparing a highly malleable video game which can be altered to recreate a scenario within a copyrighted entity... and spreadsheet software? really? what's next, a Commodore 64 and a pencil?

1. Any other licensee can market however they want to. Do they benefit from the increased popularity due to the show? Yes. So. What.

HBO is already not the only licensee. And they are derivative rights, not tertiary. There aren't tertiary rights. GRRM sold them rights to use IP. Why would he keep others? Maybe so he can sell them to someone else. Or maybe they are ones HBO wasn't even interested in at the time. When the initial contract was done, it was some time before the show was successful.

Just on a quick search. The very popular GoT LCG. The licensee is Fantasy Flight, and lists only GRRM as the owner of the copyright. No mention of HBO at all, despite the massive boost to sales from the show. It also acquired the license in 2008, well before the show even existed. Maybe FFG should sue HBO?


2. Paradox isn't a licensee. Paradox also isn't involved in violating any of HBO's copyrights, nor involved in making products that are GoT related. Paradox doesn't need a license to make its own IP. HBO doesn't have a "may or may not have a case worth taking to court," they had no case whatsoever. Paradox isn't a small indie developer, they can afford a lawyer consultation and the filing fees to fight an obviously spurious lawsuit. HBO could not freeze them out by filing aggressive suits.

3. I'm honestly not sure what you are even trying to say. What does PI have overarching direct control over that violates any of HBO's copyrights?

4. It is not a false equivalence at all. They are the same thing. Software that a user can use to produce X, where X violates a copyright. I can do a Google image search, right click an image copy it to Facebook and print it. Which of those many software companies is now liable for my copyright violations? The complexity of a tool does not make it any less of a tool.

Ever hear of RPG Maker? How about TyranoBuilder. Or even Ren'Py, its freeware. Are any of those companies liable if someone uses their product to violate a copyright? I'll give you a hint, they would not still be in business if they were.

Paradox has licensed the Clausewitz engine itself to other companies to make games.

You conveniently leave out the part where I say the mod itself is a copyright violation. It can be targeted for removal with all the force at HBO's disposal. I also touched briefly on why companies tend to not try to exterminate their fanbases. AKA their strongest and easiest source of revenue.

 

[aruon]

actually AGOT falls under Fair Use as it has no element of profit to it. if money WAS involved, it then would become a violation. you seem to think everything both is and isn't a copyright violation of some kind.

and FFS! since you're so damn sure about all this why don't you call up HBO to get it straight from them. because i'm getting tired of this pointless run around over something that isn't even relevant anymore. seriously, i'm tired of wasting my time.

 

[Fulmen]

What Makes the Clausewitz Engine Special?

The amount of desyncs.

 

[landon912]

i personally tried to implement clausewitz features in unity. the experience could be summarized in the following points:

• writing stuff on textures is usually slow, really slow, unless the engine was designed with the intention of doing that. as an example, unity forces you to load the texture on the graphic card to render it, and then load it back to the main memory to modify them, which lead to really slow operations since they all move in the system bus.
• writing nice nations names text is almost impossible. Yes the ottoman empire name is usually really missplaced in eu4 but most of the manes are not. i've look for articles and books about how to place names inside polygons but most of the do not use bent text, and they are usually about making sure they do not end up one on top of the other. Clausewitz engine does something different and i have no idea how.
• the standard model of game objects used in many engines does not really work all that well, since clausewitz has to manage 4k+ objects at the same time, and if you are zoomed out all the way they are all on screen.
• independent simulations multiplayer. the engine has to be designed to allow this features. it can't use platform dependent optimizations. yes you can work around that but it's usually better to develop the engine with that idea in mind.

This requirements are pretty much unique to paradox titles, and clausewitz is the only engine that supports all of them that i ever saw. i don't think is actually all that hard to develop another engine that does something similar with the help of a cartographer that knows the tricks of name placement.

Most of the things you mentioned do not necessitate a custom engine.

• This is not really true. This is how engines work. It's up to the developer to write shaders or compute shaders to do tasks on the GPU(and therefore avoid the bus overhead), you can already do this in most third party engines.
• This is totally an implementation issue, all font is rendered on some form of polygons. Most likely, Clausewitz is just manipulating a font texture on the GPU that is rendered on a (transparent) single quad.
• Using the Unity GameObject model for this type of game is a huge design mistake. I would only use GameObject's for stuff that needs rendered - unit representatives, terrain, water, boats, etc. The rest of the stuff of would just be POD.
• You could use Unity's low level multiplayer API to implement this yourself. I'm not sure if Clausewitz implements a lock-step. Third party engines usually implements extensive platform specific optimizations that would be too extensive for even PDX to do themselves.

Clausewitz exists, in my opinion, because there wasn't such mature options on the market at the time. Then it simply became easier to continue to build upon the existing codebase rather than porting to a new engine.

*All of the above is unfounded speculation about Clausewitz, it's all just inferences from prior experiences in the industry*

 

[IHateThisCo]

actually AGOT falls under Fair Use as it has no element of profit to it. if money WAS involved, it then would become a violation. you seem to think everything both is and isn't a copyright violation of some kind.

and FFS! since you're so damn sure about all this why don't you call up HBO to get it straight from them. because i'm getting tired of this pointless run around over something that isn't even relevant anymore. seriously, i'm tired of wasting my time.

Especially in regards to fair use, copyright law is one of the most mistaken things I see planted all over the internet. Almost every AMV I watch or fanfiction read has a fair use disclaimer on it. That disclaimer means nothing, and is usually false.

Lack of profit does not make something fair use. Whether or not something is fair use is always a complex analysis, and gets determined by the court. Currently, the presumption is that a use of another's IP is not fair use, and must be defended as fair use. The means that, without a court case, there is no fair use. I, and others, support a change to the law so that there is a presumption of free use in many situations. There are advocacy groups for this, as well as other changes to IP law.

Even were I to call up HBO, it is unlikely they would share the details of a private contract with me, but I really don't need to. I do not need an association with or information from HBO to converse on facts about the law. What constitutes a copyright or a copyright violation is independent of anything HBO is. It is unlikely most of the HBO executives even have much understanding of IP law. That is why companies like HBO hire law firms to handle those things. They are in the business of running an entertainment network, not the law. Yes, I am "so damn sure about this."

I never claim anywhere that something both is a violation and is not. I said many copyright violations go unprosecuted because it is in the copyright holder's best interest not to do so. Intellectual Property is that. A property right. It is trespassing if someone enters your property without permission regardless of if they do damage to it. In the same way it is a copyright violation to make derivative works on another's IP without permission, whether or not one makes a profit from them.

 

[Mr. Capiatlist]

We're not really talking about the engine anymore, so I'm going to close the thread.