What kind of military dictatorship will YOU be running?

[Fourthspartan56]

I see you miss the word "proper" in my original post.

True the Utopian form of Communism would be egalitarian but the various forms of Authoritarian Socialism like Stalinism, Maoism, Marxist-Lenisim, would absolutely count for Authoritarian, which is what they mean when they say "communist".


On the thread subject I plan to have a fanatically Authoritarian and Militaristic Despotic Empire, it's an oldy but a goody!

 

[Shatterfury]

True the Utopian form of Communism would be egalitarian but the various forms of Authoritarian Socialism like Stalinism, Maoism, Marxist-Lenisim, would absolutely count for Authoritarian, which is what they mean when they say "communist".


On the thread subject I plan to have a fanatically Authoritarian and Militaristic Despotic Empire, it's an oldy but a goody!

Nothing beats a full blown police state, doesn`t it ? )))

 

[Fourthspartan56]

Nothing beats a full blown police state, doesn`t it ? )))

Absolutely! Pure despotism just makes me go

 

[wurmkrank]

I see you miss the word "proper" in my original post.

so you mean the abolishing of private property and the state. That is the Marxist definition of "proper" communism. Marxists have had over 100 years to demonstrate what that would look like in theory and they have failed. The egalitarian ethos does not abolish private property or the state. So you are wrong when you say that egalitarian+utopian living standards is "proper" communism. Egalitarian ethos represents the idea of private property and equal opportunity under the law, enforced by the state. Living standards in 1.5 is simply another way of representing taxes.

 

[Fourthspartan56]

so you mean the abolishing of private property and the state. That is the Marxist definition of "proper" communism. Marxists have had over 100 years to demonstrate what that would look like in theory and they have failed. The egalitarian ethos does not abolish private property or the state. So you are wrong when you say that egalitarian+utopian living standards is "proper" communism. Egalitarian ethos represents the idea of private property and equal opportunity under the law, enforced by the state. Living standards in 1.5 is simply another way of representing taxes.

False. Egalitarianism in Stellaris represents equal rights and opportunities so a Communist state would be egalitarian. Sure egalitarian+prosperity tradition would most likely represent that but egalitarianism on its own is not connected to wealth or anything economic.

 

[BlackUmbrellas]

The egalitarian ethos does not abolish private property or the state

IMHO the "Direct Democracy" government seems awfully close to a communist-esque system in which each citizen has a voice and the masses decide the course of things.

 

[wurmkrank]

False. Egalitarianism in Stellaris represents equal rights and opportunities so a Communist state would be egalitarian. Sure egalitarian+prosperity tradition would most likely represent that but egalitarianism on its own is not connected to wealth or anything economic.

sorry but you're contradicting yourself by arguing for "proper communism" and a "communist state" at the same time. Marxists communism is the abolishment of private property, the state, and money. A communist state is USSR, China, Cuba. These are states that have abolished (essentially) private property, but not the state, Marx called this socialism, a stepping stone to "true Communism". It is 100% authoritarian, your rights are whatever the state says they are. No society that has tried Marxism has gotten past that point and ascended to true Communism. So, there is no evidence that's it's even possible.

 

[Fourthspartan56]

sorry but you're contradicting yourself by arguing for "proper communism" and a "communist state" at the same time. Marxists communism is the abolishment of private property, the state, and money. A communist state is USSR, China, Cuba. These are states that have abolished (essentially) private property, but not the state, Marx called this socialism, a stepping stone to "true Communism". It is 100% authoritarian, your rights are whatever the state says they are. No society that has tried Marxism has gotten past that point and ascended to true Communism. So, there is no evidence that's it's even possible.

And? Stellaris is about hypotheticals, and hypothetically a state that has achieved proper Communism would be egalitarian. If people want to do those Authoritarian Socialists then they can but egalitarianism is absolutely proper for a Communist society.

 

[wurmkrank]

And? Stellaris is about hypotheticals, and hypothetically a state that has achieved proper Communism would be egalitarian. If people want to do those Authoritarian Socialists then they can but egalitarianism is absolutely proper for a Communist society.

There's no state in proper communism! That's my point! There's not even a hypothetical theory of how a true communist society functions. Marx threw together a bunch of assertions, half of which have been falsified by now, and called it communism. Even anarcho-capatalists have a more complete theory of what their society would look like. If you want to pretend you're playing a "communist society" by picking the ethos that's modeled after a liberal democracy, then be my guest. However, you can't correct people by saying a liberal democracy is communism.

 

[niallmcfc]

There's no state in proper communism! That's my point! There's not even a hypothetical theory of how a true communist society functions. Marx threw together a bunch of assertions, half of which have been falsified by now, and called it communism. Even anarcho-capatalists have a more complete theory of what their society would look like. If you want to pretend you're playing a "communist society" by picking the ethos that's modeled after a liberal democracy, then be my guest. However, you can't correct people by saying a liberal democracy is communism.

Are... Are you trying to say that Marx... Did not know what communism is?

 

[Promethian]

Authoritarian Xenophile Militarist. We conquor and enslave you because we love you.

 

[Shatterfury]

Authoritarian Xenophile Militarist. We conquor and enslave you because we love you.

The moment you see the race that you have just met not doing Ordnung right. )))

 

[wurmkrank]

Are... Are you trying to say that Marx... Did not know what communism is?

I'm saying he didn't know what he was talking about. All his assertions about society and economy were bullshit. This is why you will never find a model of communism that fits his definition, and why every implementation is an authoritarian hellhole, because that's the result of the implementation of his ideas.

 

[CiderMuffin]

sorry but you're contradicting yourself by arguing for "proper communism" and a "communist state" at the same time. Marxists communism is the abolishment of private property, the state, and money. A communist state is USSR, China, Cuba. These are states that have abolished (essentially) private property, but not the state, Marx called this socialism, a stepping stone to "true Communism". It is 100% authoritarian, your rights are whatever the state says they are. No society that has tried Marxism has gotten past that point and ascended to true Communism. So, there is no evidence that's it's even possible.

The problem with those states is they were never true communism but deviated to support the ideals the founders wanted. In an actual Communist state you wouldn't have any classes, the political leaders wouldn't live in palaces or extravagant lifestyles and they most certainly wouldn't have dictators. That's the main problem with those communist states, they altered communism to fit their ideas, hence why we have Maoism, Stalinism, Leninism and Castroism. Each one is a different form of Communism and deviate from actual Marxist communism.

This is why Egalitarianism would be more close to Communism then the opposite. Losing private property wouldn't actually be a authoritarian ideal, rather setting up autocracy or oligarchies would be closer to authoritarianism whereas Egalitarianism forces you to only select true democracies which the ideals of True Communism would allow. This is another thing, Egalitarianism everyone has a voice, this is true with actual communism where the people have a direct voice in how the government operates. Egalitarianism also sets up a system where everyone in the state has equal rights which include citizen rights and human rights (though in Stellaris I suppose it's species rights) such as healthcare, food, housing, abolishing of currency and classes. Whereas with Authoritarianism there are still classes, most likely currency, land is controlled by the elite rather then the state and only the elite has a voice in government.

The main problem with Communism RIGHT NOW is we don't have the technology needed to actually accomplish it and people abused the concept (which can happen with any political ideology) but the whole point of Stellaris is it's the future, in fact like someone said a direct democracy would be the best way to show communism in the game with Subconscious Consensus being true communism.

Of course Egalitarianism isn't fully Communism but both share a lot of the same ideas and it's easier to role-play a true communist state as egalitarian then authoritarian.

Marx knew a lot about what he was talking about, it's just people abused his ideals so they can get more power.

 

[wurmkrank]

The problem with those states is they were never true communism but deviated to support the ideals the founders wanted. In an actual Communist state you wouldn't have any classes, the political leaders wouldn't live in palaces or extravagant lifestyles and they most certainly wouldn't have dictators. That's the main problem with those communist states, they altered communism to fit their ideas, hence why we have Maoism, Stalinism, Leninism and Castroism. Each one is a different form of Communism and deviate from actual Marxist communism.

This is why Egalitarianism would be more close to Communism then the opposite. Losing private property wouldn't actually be a authoritarian ideal, rather setting up autocracy or oligarchies would be closer to authoritarianism whereas Egalitarianism forces you to only select true democracies which the ideals of True Communism would allow. This is another thing, Egalitarianism everyone has a voice, this is true with actual communism where the people have a direct voice in how the government operates. Egalitarianism also sets up a system where everyone in the state has equal rights which include citizen rights and human rights (though in Stellaris I suppose it's species rights) such as healthcare, food, housing, abolishing of currency and classes. Whereas with Authoritarianism there are still classes, most likely currency, land is controlled by the elite rather then the state and only the elite has a voice in government.

The main problem with Communism RIGHT NOW is we don't have the technology needed to actually accomplish it and people abused the concept (which can happen with any political ideology) but the whole point of Stellaris is it's the future, in fact like someone said a direct democracy would be the best way to show communism in the game with Subconscious Consensus being true communism.

Of course Egalitarianism isn't fully Communism but both share a lot of the same ideas and it's easier to role-play a true communist state as egalitarian then authoritarian.

Marx knew a lot about what he was talking about, it's just people abused his ideals so they can get more power.

you can't have freedom without private property. Who decides who can use what and when? Who owns your body? If there's no private property then you can't decide what you do with your own body. Is that freedom for the individual?
This is what I'm talking about.

 

[CiderMuffin]

you can't have freedom without private property. Who decides who can use what and when? Who owns your body? If there's no private property then you can't decide what you do with your own body. Is that freedom for the individual?
This is what I'm talking about.

Private property usually refers to land and resources, the whole point is everyone has access to the same quality of land and same amount of resources. It's about equality and everyone being treated equal. No one is left hungry, no one is left without standard living quality and no one is left out. So for instance in a non-egalitarian society a struggling factory who can't get supplies because the wealthy elite are purposely taking them all by paying suppliers more would end up closing shop whereas in an egalitarian society everyone gets the same amount of resources because the government is in-charge of production.

Your body isn't property, in fact claiming a body can be property is an idea created by slavery and serfdom which do not exist in an egalitarian society nor a communist society. In a egalitarian society the individual is free and in a true communist society a individual is free. There are no slaves in Communism, there are no serfs in Communism.

 

[wurmkrank]

Private property usually refers to land and resources, the whole point is everyone has access to the same quality of land and same amount of resources. It's about equality and everyone being treated equal. No one is left hungry, no one is left without standard living quality and no one is left out. So for instance in a non-egalitarian society a struggling factory who can't get supplies because the wealthy elite are purposely taking them all by paying suppliers more would end up closing shop whereas in an egalitarian society everyone gets the same amount of resources because the government is in-charge of production.

Your body isn't property, in fact claiming a body can be property is an idea created by slavery and serfdom which do not exist in an egalitarian society nor a communist society. In a egalitarian society the individual is free and in a true communist society a individual is free. There are no slaves in Communism, there are no serfs in Communism.

ohhhhhh so there's a government who decides who gets what, guess what? That's not part of Marxists communism. sorry you can't have a state, Marx said so.
If your body isn't your own property then you don't get to decide what happens to it. What if the Subconscious democracy decides to vote to tattoo a dick on your foot? You can't object because that's not your foot.

 

[CiderMuffin]

ohhhhhh so there's a government who decides who gets what, guess what? That's not part of Marxists communism. sorry you can't have a state, Marx said so.
If your body isn't your own property then you don't get to decide what happens to it. What if the Subconscious democracy decides to vote to tattoo a dick on your foot? You can't object because that's not your foot.

Going to need citation on Marx saying a state can't exist.

Also again, bodies aren't property. That's a notion created by slavery and serfdom which aren't part of true communism. What part of this aren't you getting?

 

[SuperGeek89]

Going to need citation on Marx saying a state can't exist.
Also again, bodies aren't property. That's a notion created by slavery and serfdom which aren't part of true communism. What part of this aren't you getting?

I'm no expert on Karl Marx or Communism in general but isn't the whole point of Communism, in theory at least, to achieve a stateless society where everyone is equal?

 

[Aphil]

Well, looks like the thread took a turn towards politics. I'll try to help keep it back on track.

I'll be playing as a Militarist, Authoritarian, Materialist Megacorporation known as the Ferenian Commerce Authority.

The personality type is essentially that of the Ruthless Capitalist and my society seeks to obtain as much material wealth as possible. We'll field a massive military in order to conquer other empires and make them a tributary. My hope with Utopia is to be able to build a powerful military, make all of my neighbors tributaries and use the resources I acquire from them to build Dyson Spheres, Ring Worlds and Habitats within my relatively small territory, further increasing my strength and wealth generation potential.

Supremacy, Domination and the Prosperity trees will all be must-haves I think.