What? 'Japanese Shoguante'? Just name them 'JAPAN' for non-aligned & democratic Japan!

[Jet Tengu]

TL;DR

• Default names for Japan, in current version...
  • 'Japanese Shogunate' for non-aligned Japan (I don't like it)
  • 'State of Japan' for democratic Japan
• Just name it 'JAPAN' for both non-align & democratic Japan, by default
• Call it 'Japanese Shogunate' only when they picked Modern Shogunate NF
• Call it State of Japan, only when Japan is forcibly become democratic

I don't agree that non-aligned Japan is called 'Japanese Shogunate' by default.

Many other countries such as Tibet, Portugal, China, Poland... are just simply called with only their proper nouns, without any prefix and suffix, when they are non-aligned.
But when it comes to Japan, fascist one is simply called 'JAPAN', while non-aligned one is 'Japanese Shogunate'.

Plus, I know that Japan in WW2 was in Axis powers... But that does not mean Japan itself is a fascist thing as a whole!
This is absurd! I want this to be fixed.


First, make both non-aligned & democratic Japan be simply called JAPAN, by default.

Then, call non-aligned Japan 'Japanese Shogunate', ONLY when it picked 'Modern Shoguante' NF.

And name it Empire of Japan, both for fascist one, and non-aligned Japan with 'Showa Restoration' NF.
And also allow democratic Japan the title of 'Empire of Japan', with certain NFs.

Finally, name it State of Japan, ONLY when it is forcibly become democratic, not through 'Strengthen Civilian Government' NF tree.

 

[cotne22]

PDX has a weird policy that every ideology should have a different flag and country name. I personally dislike this.

 

[GrandVezir]

Japan is only called "Japanese Shogunate" if they go non-aligned (by taking the "Support the Kodoha Faction" focus) and do not take the subsequent "Showa Restoration" focus. Once Japan restores Emperor Showa to his full authority, they change from "Japanese Shogunate" to "Empire of Japan." If they instead choose to preserve the Shogunate (either by choosing the "Modern Shogunate" focus or by choosing not to choose), they keep the Shogunate name.

Within the constraints of PDX's policy, I find that better than calling both democratic and non-aligned, "Japan."

 

[The_Evil_Chicken]

Plus, I know that Japan in WW2 was in Axis powers... But that does not mean Japan itself is a fascist thing as a whole!
This is absurd! I want this to be fixed.

How was Japan not fascist in WW2? They embraced militarism and nationalism from the 30s till the end of WW2. Most people agree that it was the nationalist government that lead the nation, not the Emperor (making it "HoI4" fascist rather than non-aligned (monarchist).

Apart from that they wanted to place the japanese race over other asian races, at least economically (although we know that they at least treated korean and chinese people similar to how the Nazis treated slav people) . They explicitly viewed western soldiers as inferior and decadent.

So how could you justify them being non-aligned?

Also there is a fairly good reason why it's called "State of Japan" - The official Japanese-language name is Nippon-koku or Nihon-koku (日本国), literally "State of Japan" (Wikipedia)

Finally I don't get why you want to only call it Shogunate when it's the "modern shogunate", aka constitutional monarchy. I'd rather do it the other way round, calling it "State of Japan", or "Japan" when being a const. monarchy, as they'd be closer to today's Japan and or pre 30s Japan , whilst calling it "Shogunate of Japan" when being absolute monarchy, as HoI4 views that path as a restaurationist (to Shogunate times) in contrast to the Empire, in which the emperors power was limited.

 

[GrandVezir]

How was Japan not fascist in WW2? They embraced militarism and nationalism from the 30s till the end of WW2. Most people agree that it was the nationalist government that lead the nation, not the Emperor (making it "HoI4" fascist rather than non-aligned (monarchist).

Apart from that they wanted to place the japanese race over other asian races, at least economically (although we know that they at least treated korean and chinese people similar to how the Nazis treated slav people) . They explicitly viewed western soldiers as inferior and decadent.

So how could you justify them being non-aligned?

Also there is a fairly good reason why it's called "State of Japan" - The official Japanese-language name is Nippon-koku or Nihon-koku (日本国), literally "State of Japan" (Wikipedia)

Finally I don't get why you want to only call it Shogunate when it's the "modern shogunate", aka constitutional monarchy. I'd rather do it the other way round, calling it "State of Japan", or "Japan" when being a const. monarchy, as they'd be closer to today's Japan and or pre 30s Japan , whilst calling it "Shogunate of Japan" when being absolute monarchy, as HoI4 views that path as a restaurationist (to Shogunate times) in contrast to the Empire, in which the emperors power was limited.

Hoo boy. Can of worms alert. Gross oversimplification to follow:

Spoiler: Gross oversimplification

The government of Japan on 1 January 1936 was almost* entirely a mix of traditional oligarchs (monarchist/non-aligned) and expansionist militarists (fascists, at least in game terms). This arrangement satisfied neither camp, and the whole thing was shaken up by a coup attempt just over a month later (the 2/26 Incident). The coup plotters were militant young officers (fascist in-game) who killed a few officials and notables, but failed to overthrow the government. The plotters got the usual (arrest, secret trials, some executions), but long-term the government overall shifted to greater military influence.
*Technically there were a few parliamentary-democracy types rattling around, and the communists were all in exile or hiding at this point.

In game terms, it would probably be fine to start Japan with a mixed fascist/non-aligned government in 1936, with enough democracy to keep either from a full majority and comparatively low stability to boot. Then by event or national focus, resolve the split. If resolved in favor of the military: big stability increase (since most of the guys with guns approved of themselves being in charge), and the government type moves to fascist (probably less than 100%). If in favor of the monarchy, smaller move to non-aligned and smaller stability increase. If in favor of one of the out-groups, stability hit, civil war, the usual mess.

Actually, that last paragraph looks a lot like what we have now, except the whole mess starts out as if the split has already been resolved in favor of the militarists, with an option to reverse it.

 

[The_Evil_Chicken]

Hoo boy. Can of worms alert. Gross oversimplification to follow:

Spoiler: Gross oversimplification

The government of Japan on 1 January 1936 was almost* entirely a mix of traditional oligarchs (monarchist/non-aligned) and expansionist militarists (fascists, at least in game terms). This arrangement satisfied neither camp, and the whole thing was shaken up by a coup attempt just over a month later (the 2/26 Incident). The coup plotters were militant young officers (fascist in-game) who killed a few officials and notables, but failed to overthrow the government. The plotters got the usual (arrest, secret trials, some executions), but long-term the government overall shifted to greater military influence.
*Technically there were a few parliamentary-democracy types rattling around, and the communists were all in exile or hiding at this point.

In game terms, it would probably be fine to start Japan with a mixed fascist/non-aligned government in 1936, with enough democracy to keep either from a full majority and comparatively low stability to boot. Then by event or national focus, resolve the split. If resolved in favor of the military: big stability increase (since most of the guys with guns approved of themselves being in charge), and the government type moves to fascist (probably less than 100%). If in favor of the monarchy, smaller move to non-aligned and smaller stability increase. If in favor of one of the out-groups, stability hit, civil war, the usual mess.

Actually, that last paragraph looks a lot like what we have now, except the whole mess starts out as if the split has already been resolved in favor of the militarists, with an option to reverse it.

I agree that HoI4 oversimplifies. But they generally stick to the "war time" ideology/leaders. This can also be seen in Australia, where Labour is ruling from 1936, whilst historically it was from 1941 if I'm right. And wartime Japan absolutely ticks all the definitions of Fascism I know...

Also I wouldn't say the failed coup disqualifies them. I see it more like an equivalent to the night of the long knives tbh.

Just so you know, I totally agree with your proposal. It's just not how I think HoI4 handels politics.

 

[Jet Tengu]

How was Japan not fascist in WW2?

That wasn't what I meant.

I meant that if they name fascist Japan just 'JAPAN' (and Mussollini's Italy just 'ITALY'), then it sounds like the very existence of Japan & Italy themselves are fascist things as a whole! (even without the Axis, even without WW2!)


Again, Japan during WW2 was in the Axis. But, Emperor Jimmu NEVER founded Japan as the fascist country at the beginning.

Italy was the birthplace of fascism. But, Romulus and Remus also DIDN'T found Roman Kingdom as the fascist country.
And Giuseppe Garibaldi was not a fascist!

Also there is a fairly good reason why it's called "State of Japan" - The official Japanese-language name is Nippon-koku or Nihon-koku (日本国), literally "State of Japan" (Wikipedia)

Also I DIDN'T mean that the etymology of 'State of Japan' is wrong.

I meant that, just calling it 'JAPAN' would be better, as the default name of democratic Japan.

Let Japan be just called 'Japan' when it becomes democratic by itself, through the NF.
And let Japan be called 'State of Japan' when it lost the war and became democratic forcibly by the Allies (based on the historical events).


Is keeping the name 'State of Japan' for the history-based 'Post-War Democracy (戦後民主主義)' country, wrong?

 

[GrandVezir]

Yep. Can of worms.

This thread brings up the two problems with in-game country names:

1. PDX wants each country/ideology to have a unique name.
2. National politics are unique to each nation, and getting the names and ideologies right enough to please both national and historical aficionados is a challenge.

So, how to name each possible iteration of Japan?

I cheerfully admit to a very modest knowledge of Japanese history: maybe half a dozen books about the Meiji and Showa reigns, a bit of stuff gleaned from general wargaming knowledge, and whatever wikipedia has to offer. So on the one hand, I could learn a lot more; on the other, I'm reasonably close to the target audience PDX is trying to reach. Based on that knowledge, I know that the modern Japanese democracy is definitely Nihon-kokku, and Imperial Japan (from the Meiji Restoration until the end of WW2) went by Dai Nihon Teikoku, which more correctly translates as "Empire of Greater Japan," but is usually referred to as Imperial Japan or the Japanese Empire.

So, here's what I'd suggest, if we're only looking at names and not changing events, mechanics, or national focuses for Japan:

• Japan begins as fascist, to reflect where it was headed after the 2/26 Incident and further political shifts leading up to and through the "China Incident" in 1937. Fine. Oversimplified, but fine. Call it "Imperial Japan," since that's the one most wargame-level historians would most easily accept.
• Short national focus leads us to the monarchist/non-aligned path. Call that one "The Japanese Shogunate" as above, but change the name to simply "Japan" after the Showa Restoration. Arguably, the Showa Restoration deserves the name "Imperial Japan" at least as much as the fascist/militarist iteration, but names must be unique per 1. above.
• Call any version of democratic Japan, "The Japanese State." It's probably not strictly period-accurate, but it's accurate to the postwar setup, and it's an easy way out.
• Call the commie version "The Japanese People's Republic." Or whatever. Does anyone enjoy playing communist Japan anyway?

 

[Jet Tengu]

PDX has a weird policy that every ideology should have a different flag and country name. I personally dislike this.

This thread brings up the two problems with in-game country names:

1. PDX wants each country/ideology to have a unique name.

Despite this policy, there are a few nations which have same names between/among different ideologies. lol

Here are some examples...

These countries will have same names for being both...

• Fascist & Non-aligned
  • Greater Hungary
  • Chinese Empire
  • Third Bulgarian Empire
  • Qing China (if Manchukuo becomes independent)
• Democratic & Fascist
  • Luxembourg
• ALL IDEOLOGIES!
  • United Balkan Federation

Yes, even there is a case (and maybe a few more) that all ideologies share same country name, just like United Balkan Federation.

Will they strictly apply that policy for these countries in the future?
Well, I hope not.

 

[Jet Tengu]

I know that some of you don't want to completely abolish this policy.

At least we don't want the country have same name and flag among Democratic & Fascist & Communist.
Especially, at first, Communist must be easily distinguished from others.

So here's my additional idea.

• Communist can't share same country name with other ideologies
• Non-aligned can share same name with either Democratic or Fascist
  • Fascist & Non-aligned: Qing China, Third Bulgarian Empire...
  • Democratic & Non-aligned: Japan
• But among Democratic & Fascist & Non-aligned can't share same country name at once (by default, with some exceptions)
  • Fix the case of Luxembourg, and stop calling fascist Japan 'Japan'.
  • But Japan is called 'Empire of Japan' when Japan is
    • Fascist (even without any NF, any National Spirit)
    • Picked 'Showa Restoration' NF while being Non-aligned
    • Meet certain conditions while being Democratic

 

[safe-keeper]

PDX has a weird policy that every ideology should have a different flag and country name. I personally dislike this.

For fairness' sake, it allows you to notice at a glance that a country has changed ideology. Having said that, I agree with you, it feels pretty immersion-breaking.

 

[Jet Tengu]

For fairness' sake, it allows you to notice at a glance that a country has changed ideology. Having said that, I agree with you, it feels pretty immersion-breaking.

It'll be needed, only when the country has changed ideology 'so drastically'.

Otherwise, if the country's ideology is changed 'moderately', it's less necessary to be noticed at a glance.

So...

• Communist can't share same country name with other ideologies
• Non-aligned can share same name with either Democratic or Fascist
• But among Democratic & Fascist & Non-aligned can't share same country name at once (by default, with some exceptions)

 

[GrandVezir]

I know that some of you don't want to completely abolish this policy.

At least we don't want the country have same name and flag among Democratic & Fascist & Communist.
Especially, at first, Communist must be easily distinguished from others.

So here's my additional idea.

• Communist can't share same country name with other ideologies
• Non-aligned can share same name with either Democratic or Fascist
  • Fascist & Non-aligned: Qing China, Third Bulgarian Empire...
  • Democratic & Non-aligned: Japan
• But among Democratic & Fascist & Non-aligned can't share same country name at once (by default, with some exceptions)
  • Fix the case of Luxembourg, and stop calling fascist Japan 'Japan'.
  • But Japan is called 'Empire of Japan' when Japan is
    • Fascist (even without any NF, any National Spirit)
    • Picked 'Showa Restoration' NF while being Non-aligned
    • Meet certain conditions while being Democratic

Some good ideas there. They led me to a few more thoughts:

• Fascist/monarchist Luxembourg can be "The Grand Duchy of Luxembourg," because that name needs more play-time.
• Japan begins the game as "The Empire of Japan" (as you suggest), but the Showa Restoration changes that to "The Greater Japanese Empire." Complete with newspaper event about how, in an elaborate ceremony, the Japanese Emperor reasserted his full authority over all lands &c.
• United Balkan Bulgaria needs some work, agreed. Maybe United Balkan Socialist Federation/Unified Balkan State/Confederacy of the Balkans/League of the Balkans for communist/fascist/democratic/non-aligned.

Maybe one of us should try and organize a bunch of these ideas into a post for the suggestions sub-forum?

 

[xtfoster]

PDX has a weird policy that every ideology should have a different flag and country name. I personally dislike this.

The point of the policy (the unique names for each ruling ideology, different flags, and different country colors) is to allow someone (playing as a different country) to know at a glance that something has changed in any given country. So if I am playing as Germany and get a news popup that says Japanese Shogunate, I know that the AI has chosen to go down a different path. Or if I am scrolling across the map and see that the flag (or map color) has changed I can tell the same thing at a glance.

EDIT: And yes, I know that (technically) most countries would not change names or flags just because of a (peaceful) ideology change, but for gameplay reasons it make sense. The USA for example, would probably always be the United States of America and use the same flag unless the change was the result of some sort of violent regime change.

 

[NoUsernamesHere]

Just name it 'JAPAN' for both non-align & democratic Japan, by default

Hell no.

Default should be "Japan Brando". It should only change to "JAPAN" in the Stardust Crusaders arc!

 

[Alpha2518]

How was Japan not fascist in WW2? They embraced militarism and nationalism from the 30s till the end of WW2. Most people agree that it was the nationalist government that lead the nation, not the Emperor (making it "HoI4" fascist rather than non-aligned (monarchist).

Apart from that they wanted to place the japanese race over other asian races, at least economically (although we know that they at least treated korean and chinese people similar to how the Nazis treated slav people) . They explicitly viewed western soldiers as inferior and decadent.

So how could you justify them being non-aligned?

Also there is a fairly good reason why it's called "State of Japan" - The official Japanese-language name is Nippon-koku or Nihon-koku (日本国), literally "State of Japan" (Wikipedia)

Finally I don't get why you want to only call it Shogunate when it's the "modern shogunate", aka constitutional monarchy. I'd rather do it the other way round, calling it "State of Japan", or "Japan" when being a const. monarchy, as they'd be closer to today's Japan and or pre 30s Japan , whilst calling it "Shogunate of Japan" when being absolute monarchy, as HoI4 views that path as a restaurationist (to Shogunate times) in contrast to the Empire, in which the emperors power was limited.

Because militarism and nationalism while parts of fascism, do not make a country fascist. By this logic Imperial Germany is fascist as well as Japan before fascism existed which is just stupid and also shows a poor understanding of fascism. Japan may have incorporated elements of it when fascism came about. But they have always been a single malt whiskey as opposed to a mix of whiskey's. And like anything foreign that they incorporated, they probably did a good job and japanifying it to the point where it's not even fascism. It is...whatever they made it into.

They also didn't have a strong dictatorial leader at the top. Even Tojo had generals disrespecting him to his face and calling him stupid. You don't see anyone telling that to Hitlers face, at least not while living for long at any rate. And government or not going into war, in the Japanese government the buck stops with the Emperor with all the constitutional and latent power he has, but doesn't use.

 

[GrandVezir]

Because militarism and nationalism while parts of fascism, do not make a country fascist. By this logic Imperial Germany is fascist as well as Japan before fascism existed which is just stupid and also shows a poor understanding of fascism. Japan may have incorporated elements of it when fascism came about. But they have always been a single malt whiskey as opposed to a mix of whiskey's. And like anything foreign that they incorporated, they probably did a good job and japanifying it to the point where it's not even fascism. It is...whatever they made it into.

They also didn't have a strong dictatorial leader at the top. Even Tojo had generals disrespecting him to his face and calling him stupid. You don't see anyone telling that to Hitlers face, at least not while living for long at any rate. And government or not going into war, in the Japanese government the buck stops with the Emperor with all the constitutional and latent power he has, but doesn't use.

While what Japan had may not have been doctrinaire fascism, it's close enough for game purposes.

 

[Alpha2518]

While what Japan had may not have been doctrinaire fascism, it's close enough for game purposes.

I would argue not close enough for game purposes, but for the sake of a game that's built upon three distinct factions, they have to go somewhere so fascism it is.

 

[GrandVezir]

I would argue not close enough for game purposes, but for the sake of a game that's built upon three distinct factions, they have to go somewhere so fascism it is.

We may be argueeing here.