What is your "go to" army versus the bear?

[Saltynuts]

It seems to me beating the Soviet Union is by far the most difficult thing in the game. Too easy to get bogged down given their tons of units.

Back in the day, I'd always build tons of infantry because they were so cheap, and looking at their attack, they seemed overall a better value proposition.

But I could never beat the Soviet Union because they kept spamming more infantry units than I could, and I could not eliminate many of them because I didn't have speed.

Thanks to the help of those on this forum, I figured out speed kills. Mot/mech/armor can all overrun retreating enemy infantry, wiping them off the map completely.

So I've beaten the SU easily using tons of MOT. Also using cavalry (not sure I ever finished this game, but I was clearly in the process of beating the SU).

I've tried using tanks, and mech (of course, with some regular infantry each time to help hold the lines), and while I've never actually lost to the SU, I just never seem to have enough units available in time for Barbarrosa to make it a (relatively speaking) easy victory versus the SU.

So I'm just wondering, what is everones' favorite army mix for taking on the bear?

Thanks!

 

[Pang Bingxun]

But I could never beat the Soviet Union because they kept spamming more infantry units than I could, and I could not eliminate many of them because I didn't have speed.

You might try static attack then. Given that movement = attack this seems contradictionary at first. But you can abort the movement before taking any (additional) territory and thus fight where conditions suit you. Let the enemy come to you, beat him, and repeat this very often. That way you can reinforce your troops fast and completely. They gain experience and thus effectively gain strength at a greater rate than the enemy which might soon fight with low strenghts divisions which are much easier to beat. If you combine static offensive with ground attack from CAS against retreating units this will soon annihilate the divisions of your enemy. But ground attack missions are just the icing on the cake. Germany can beat soviet union without it.

I've tried using tanks, and mech (of course, with some regular infantry each time to help hold the lines), and while I've never actually lost to the SU, I just never seem to have enough units available in time for Barbarrosa to make it a (relatively speaking) easy victory versus the SU.

So I'm just wondering, what is everones' favorite army mix for taking on the bear?

My favourite mix is not to mix at all. First one needs to decide when to attack. In 1940 Mot1941 is the way to go. In 1941 this is still a good option, but with proper planning ahead one can also use Mech1942 which unlike Mech1940 is actually better than Mot1941.

If one is determined to attack in 1942 Arm1943 becomes an option. I continue to claim that one can have 90 Arm1943 in 1942. With speed 15 they are well suited for a complete rollover of the soviet union. At first they may have a hard time against 400 soviet divisions, but after a while decisive sucess at the main front will come. After that speed 15 will be well suited to take all vp provinces of the soviet union and annex it.

Another option are Mountaineers. This means one needs to start the war during winter and use the speed disadvantage of regular troops to your advantage. This can happen by starting the war in late january 1940 with Mtn1941 or in late january 1942 with Mtn1943. Total tech rushing of the one division type till to the model used in the onslaught against the bear is the way to go. Free markets help with upgrading in a timely fashion.

In all cases but Mot1941 in 1941 one should delay building anything unessential for whatever Barbarossa you have in mind till the war has begun. If you focus the means at your disposal into achieving one target you will likely suceed in achieving it well. This does include using 1942 logistics which at moderate tc-overload increases your ese by about 13.3%.

 

[Saltynuts]

Thanks Pang! A few questions off hand.

On using Mountaineers and what I think you are saying is their speed advantage, how do you use that speed advantage effectively? I sometimes have problems beating a retreating enemy to the square they are retreating to even with armor, mech or mot. I would guess it would be hard to do this with mountaineers as I suspect they are much slower than armor, mech or mot.

Do you know what the 1942 logistics tech is called? I want to make sure I get it!

Also, I know you spelled out the upgrade path of building light tanks, then they upgrade to medium tanks. But in a recent game when I first developed medium tanks my light tanks did not seem to be upgrading. Is there some other tech I need to achieve before they upgrade automatically? And if I build lines of light tanks in the production queue, is there a way to upgrade the lines to medium tanks? I didn't see the option in another prior game even when my light tanks had in fact upgraded. Do I just have to keep the old lines, and upgrade the units when each is built (or, of course, just start new medium tank production lines and wait for the re-tooling to occur)?

Thanks!

 

[Pang Bingxun]

On using Mountaineers and what I think you are saying is their speed advantage, how do you use that speed advantage effectively?

Take a look at the movement modifiers for land units. With -60% on the enemy but full speed for you there is a clear advantage. Well, speed 10 minus 60% is still speed 4 of Mtn-Art, so against fast units there would be no speed advantage. One strenght of Mtn is that they are robust in the sense they can be used in rather bad condition. Also during winter there is no muddy condition which would be very bad for an offensive.

I sometimes have problems beating a retreating enemy to the square they are retreating to even with armor, mech or mot. I would guess it would be hard to do this with mountaineers as I suspect they are much slower than armor, mech or mot.

Beating the enemy helps. Units down to zero Org lose half their speed. This makes it easy for say china to overrun Japanese troops albeit they have the same basic speed and even start with a head start of often more than a day.

Do you know what the 1942 logistics tech is called? I want to make sure I get it!

It is the third one, frontline logitics. It is easily identified by the fact that the next one has the historic year 1945 which comes too late for barbarossa while 1942 logitics come just in time when they are needed urgently.

Also, I know you spelled out the upgrade path of building light tanks, then they upgrade to medium tanks. But in a recent game when I first developed medium tanks my light tanks did not seem to be upgrading. Is there some other tech I need to achieve before they upgrade automatically?

You do need light Armour1939 first.

And if I build lines of light tanks in the production queue, is there a way to upgrade the lines to medium tanks?

Donnot think so.

Do I just have to keep the old lines, and upgrade the units when each is built (or, of course, just start new medium tank production lines and wait for the re-tooling to occur)?

My implicit plan is to build 90 light Armour1938 till mid 1940 against france and the rest of europa but soviet union. A year later In 1941 the upgrades to light armour 1939 and the Armour1939 would follow. Once Armour1943 has be researched the upgrades to Arm1941 and Arm1943 would follow in quick sucession to get the 77.5% discount on upgrading to outdated models. This discount does not apply for the upgrades fom one dvision type to another, namely light Armour to Armour.

90 Arm1943-SpArt1943 consume 666 oil a day during movement. This creates some serios constrictions that avoid me from advising to take this route. Also during battle they cause a tc-load of 1395. So this should only be tried by those that have already figured out the idiosyncrasies of the economic system and the logitics of AoD.

Trying Mot or Mtn is for starters. Trying Mech is for those that have done the earlier already. Dealing with 666 oil consumption from parts of the army alone is for advanced players only.

or, of course, just start new medium tank production lines and wait for the re-tooling to occur

Then you might aswell build Armour1936. Armour takes very many days to complete, thus gaining 5 percentage points of gearing bonus is expensive and valueable, upgrading production lines or starting new ones tends to be inefficient. Upgrading is expensive but cheaper than the alternatives.

 

[Commander666]

But I could never beat the Soviet Union because they kept spamming more infantry units than I could, and I could not eliminate many of them because I didn't have speed.

Blitzkrieg is the secret to beating the SU. Success comes with creating pockets and eliminating the enemy dozens at a time.

Thanks to the help of those on this forum, I figured out speed kills.

So I'm just wondering, what is everones' favorite army mix for taking on the bear?

A very mixed army that uses the best of each unit applied to specific circumstance. ARM and MEC are obvious as spearhead units. INF both brigaded and not to take the brunt of the opening attack.

MOTs to fill in the gap between the advancing INF and the more forward mobiles.

CAV to capitalize taking marshes. In fact there exists a very good opening attack by putting a dozen CAV into Bielsk. That very much upsets the AI defense and creates much movement in his lines to eliminate his dug in bonus. It starts as a side show that greatly contributes to breaking thru elsewhere but then becomes the flanks of two major surrounds.

MAR to take Riga and so start another surround using a good size Reserve Army sitting in Danzig. Next they contribute to winning easily at Leningrad which is the start of isolating the Red Army in Lapland. 12 TP to transport this amphibious force. 3 marine divisions is OK for Barbarossa.

GAR that were in place all along the border with SU and will be SRed at the maximum rate of only 1 in the SR pool at a time. This effort done selectively takes care of getting a few GAR into key cities and air bases as you take SU territory. Many more GAR at Konigsberg to transport to the conquered SU Baltic shore. About 24 units on map when Barbarossa starts.

MTN for the Caucasus. 9-12 divisions is nice.

HQs to avail of all their many benefits. Every province must be adjacent to a HQ once the front line extends - so minimum of 6.

PAR - the most critical unit of all. It takes much experience to use them without losing any, but they can be a game changer instantly. Don't build more than 3 when learning to use them but vital you have 6 transports (TRA)

 

[Saltynuts]

Thanks Pang and Commander!

Commander, a few questions on the different units. GAR - can these move other than by SRing? I thought they could not, but it sounds like maybe you are saying they can be. How do you determine where to place them? Do you keep them at the front, in a "lane" back to Germany to cut down on partisans, or both?

MAR - never used them before, I take it you mainly only use them when attacking a province from the sea? Or are they potent as a regular footsoldier attacking over land as well?

PAR - any hints on when/where to use them?

Thanks!

 

[Mr_B0narpte]

Garrisons can only move via SR - please note they cannot be moved from any frontline province (unless there are no enemy troops in the neighbouring provinces). I think they're best for suppression purposes, creating a green line of revolt risk from Berlin to Moscow etc. But also they're good at preventing/reducing attrition for front line units, which is great for static fronts (ie Siegfried line).

Marines are great not only for amphibious assualts but also in jungle terrain (ie Burma, Malaysia etc).

Paratroopers are over-powered due to (broken) combat mechanics. They shine when being used in any significant offensive - if there is a massive battle over one province and you are the attacker, paratroopers can turn any defending troops heading to that province into attackers, causing a serious disadvantage to the actual defenders alongside giving a -75 combat penalty to all those enemy troops heading to that province. See here - https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/paratroopers.888435/

 

[Saltynuts]

Interesting, how does the paratrooper exploit work Mr. Bonaparte? I thought my troops only enter an enemy province I've attacked after the defenders are retreating. Can paratroopers somehow arrive there first with defenders still fighting so all incoming would-be defenders become attackers?

Thanks!

 

[Mr_B0narpte]

Example

You are Germany and the defender is the USSR

1) you attack Moscow, with your 10 attacking divisions facing 12 defending Soviet divisions
2) you parachute a paratrooper into Moscow with the battle ongoing
3) Any troops the USSR was sending to Moscow now becomes an attacker, and receives a -75 over-command penalty (even if they have sufficient generals)
4) the battle continues - but any new Soviet troops are attackers, only the 12 Soviet divisions actually in Moscow are defenders - there is no limit to this so 1 paratrooper division could have turned 70 Soviet divisions in attackers, and all of them with a -75 combat penalty

 

[Saltynuts]

Got it! Thanks!

 

[Saltynuts]

So for this "cheat" to work, you have to drop the paratroops in from a plane, correct? You cannot just have them marching over land? Thanks!

 

[Commander666]

Yes, we are discussing Airborne Assault mission. Paratroopers will fight overland too but that causes problems AFAIK.

The proper way to use paratroopers in AoD is never to assist any land attack but have paratroopers work independently. This much closer resembles RL.

• especially convenient is paratrooper taking undefended province to contribute to closing a pocket your are trying to make happen.
• paratroopers landing on unguarded airport only to give zero org to retreating aircraft can become the start of air dominance.
• paratroopers are essential as they are the only thing that can take certain targets - such as Gibraltar if there is no overland access.
• but mostly paratroopers are extremely efficient to gain control of a province where you have just won battle, but before you can enter it the enemy will enter reinforcements first to so restart the battle.... and it goes on and on.... over and over. Paratroopers stop that nonsense if you time it so they land right after battle is won.... must be before next enemy reinforcement arrives in province or you will get what Mr_BOnarpte describes. Preload the PARA and make sure TRA is ready to do Airborne mission.

Other than the many proper ways paratroopers can be part of the game, the transports planes (TRA) themselves are invaluable in over coming all problems with trying to move very damaged and nil org aircraft off forward bases just to make room in the forward bases; and move re-orged aircraft to those bases to fill up the depleted stacks - all without any rebasing org loss. Just use the marvel encompassed in the Air Supply mission of TRA so the TRA combined with aircraft that can't fly results in easy relocation of the damaged planes. And the instantaneous and quick speed of TRA is preferable to enduring the 2-hour mission delay when moving aircraft about. But best is that the TRA on Air Supply can change direction mid-flight if you micromanage them.... so avoiding hostiles. All in all, TRA are invaluable to overall management of any large air force.