What is with the Magyar supertroopers?

[PeterCorless]

I've tried to start over and over and over again as Kiev. Can't seem to get the hang of it.

The biggest problem I've seen is the Magyars. While most other neighboring states apart from Khazaria have only ~1,200 troops, out of nowhere the Magyars are fielding armies of 3,000+. But wait! It gets better.

Because 1,200 Magyar troops > 2,000 of any other nations combined. They never seem to lose battles unless you massively outnumber them.

Plus, no matter what happens, I keep seeing them regenerate their hordes really, really quickly. Faster than you will regain your own losses if you go home, stand down, and then stand your own forces back up.

So my strategy has simply been as follows:

Build, build, build. Get your money making machine going.
Pray to the RNGods that Khazaria, Bulgaria, and the other two neighbors of the Magyars all simultaneously dogpile. (2 or 3 or 4 of them will lose, by the way.)
Wait until you can then attack an utterly expended neighbor of the Magyars for yourself, so you can grow.
Then and only then, with some insanely large army, even consider attacking.
Attack, and watch your thousands melt away and die anyway.
Restart the game.

I've done that about 20x so far.

I have no idea how the Magyars always have about 2,500 - 3,000 troops at their disposal, no matter how much attrition they've suffered in other wars.

In the one game where I got their vassal to rebel, they patched up their differences as soon as I declared war. And then that was game over for me.

 

[Bernard95]

Can't say I've touched hordes since Horse Lords, but as far as I know hordes were nerfed with Conclave's release. I have played around the Caucasus and East European region however, and nomadic armies of any kind are still going to pack a punch but they at least they won't completely devastate you like they used to from what I've seen. As you've seen yourself though, you still need bring something like 1.5 to 2 times the number to ensure you win, but being a tribal isn't going to help that by any means since your light infantry based armies are very weak.

If it was me, in 769 I'd try and make the best of Slavic Paganism and lure them into my territory possibly over a river or something to make sure you win. Once their army is in retreat, bum rush their capital since that'll give you a nice chunk of warscore.

In 867, make use of those of coastal county conquest CBs and make a run for it. Try and retreat to say Poland or Lithuania if you can, then work your way back as you build yourself up. Also, there is a decent chance Bulgaria will just beat back the Magyar invasion so that might give you an opportunity as well.

 

[PeterCorless]

That's kind of hard when I start with ~1,200 troops, and they typically have 2,500-3,000. They just get "win" pasted over them. I just lost again. I had waited until they were being attacked by two other nations, and came into the fight hoping that they would be depleted by then. Sure enough one army had gotten down to ~250 troops. However, it. Kept. Coming. Back. By the end they were back up to 3,000 troops again. Two other combatants had even dropped out of wars against them, and Bulgaria attacked again.

Didn't matter. They had "win" written all over.

 

[Bernard95]

Tell you what then. I don't have the game in front of me, but I'll give it a shot myself tomorrow. What start did you go with? 769 or 867?

 

[PeterCorless]

769.

In my latest attempt, I was able to take a province to the northwest (can't remember what it's called). But going after Magyars is still a no-go.

 

[yourworstnightm]

769.

In my latest attempt, I was able to take a province to the northwest (can't remember what it's called). But going after Magyars is still a no-go.

So don't go after the Magyars early. Wait until they are busy fighting someone else and strike then when their troops are depleted.

 

[Okawoa]

TBH the Magyars did make Europe pretty miserable. Consider yourself lucky they don't want to raid in your timeline. It took Charlemagne to bring them to heel.

 

[Strangedane]

I just recently did a Kiev -> Rus ->Russia game.
It didn't strike me as particularly hard, your clay is decent, there's room to grow, and you've got neighbors weaker than yourself.
Why do you want to fight maggie straight away anyways?
There's tons of land to be subjugated elsewhere.

 

[Aries666]

If the Magyars are still a horde and don't have any holdings can you not just dodge their army and assault their camps which shouldn't have more than a few hundred troops? If they only have nomad camps your WS will rocket allowing you to win without a fight.

 

[indika_tates]

Magiars have high population at 769 start. About 12k. So they can field large armies. But defeating them is very easy. Rush the nomad campments assault both and you have won. Also don't try to fight a LC retinue with light infantry because you know what will happen to your tribal armies

 

[Zsrai]

769.

So you're a Tribal fighting a Nomad? That's your problem. Light Infantry is garbage and that's the bulk of Tribal forces... and they are even WORSE against Cavalry, which is all that Nomads have. Don't fight them head on, do as other posters have suggested and fight them when they are engaged with other armies. As Nomads, about all that you have to do is storm their capital and you'll win (usually about 99% War Score right away). I tend to find that the AI (even Tribal) can crush Nomads easily enough once they get their starting troops worn down a bit.

 

[HolyOne]

I think you are alone with that problem. In my experience they disappear within years every game post-Horse Lords.
(and I die a little inside every time that happens )

 

[PeterCorless]

They've raided me. Plopped 1000+ troops on Kiev and seiged me to dirt. I have to "let it happen."

I have waited until they were in wars with multiple other foes, and they still somehow manage to keep an army of about 2,500 - 3,000. And defeat each enemy in turn. Bulgaria, Khazaria, Volhynia, and others. Not sure why people didn't read that.

The biggest problem with trying to expand into other provinces: gavelkind. In the longest run-throughs I've had so far, I've get to just about where I might be able to actually, possibly attack the Maggies... then rulerdeath fun! You can't really keep a large national force together that constantly devolves at the death of a ruler. That leads to armies that usually look like 1,200 of my own troops (have yet to ever top more than 1,500), and 11 (yes, you're reading that right, eleven) from vassals.

 

[Zsrai]

They've raided me. Plopped 1000+ troops on Kiev and seiged me to dirt. I have to "let it happen."

I have waited until they were in wars with multiple other foes, and they still somehow manage to keep an army of about 2,500 - 3,000. And defeat each enemy in turn. Bulgaria, Khazaria, Volhynia, and others. Not sure why people didn't read that.

The biggest problem with trying to expand into other provinces: gavelkind. In the longest run-throughs I've had so far, I've get to just about where I might be able to actually, possibly attack the Maggies... then rulerdeath fun! You can't really keep a large national force together that constantly devolves at the death of a ruler. That leads to armies that usually look like 1,200 of my own troops (have yet to ever top more than 1,500), and 11 (yes, you're reading that right, eleven) from vassals.

We have read that, but it seems like NONE of us have ever seen the Magyars, in 769, just roflstomp everyone. I find the opposite happening, and usually within a generation from the start.

The easiest way to avoid fracturing on Gavelkind is to stop having kids (or murder them all). That way your realm doesn't fracture. If you have a limited number of kids and some fracturing does occur, you just have to consolidate. If you only have 1200-1500 troops, it sounds like you only have your capital; you need way more demesne and you should build it up way more. I strongly suggest raiding everyone for prestige, and give your heirs a military education.

 

[Greybeard0815]

TBH the Magyars did make Europe pretty miserable. Consider yourself lucky they don't want to raid in your timeline. It took Charlemagne to bring them to heel.

Uh.. no. That was Otto the Great, who is also considered first Holy Roman Emperor (originating in Germany).
See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Lechfeld_(955)
Pretty awesome battle too. Considering the Hungarians had twice the superiority in numbers. Moral of the story? Use heavy cavalry or heavy infantry to wear their squishy light cavalry down.

 

[Narvait]

I have not played a while.
Is the 'enter constant warfare, stack prestige tribal troops, become king/emperor(?) from chief in one character' still a thing? If so, Magyars must be problem only until you collect enough prestige for tribal army roll.

 

[szmik]

I don't get why one does need to attack them so quickly in the first place. Get King ambition, subjugate/conquer neighbours, laugh at Magyars or anyone else. With prestige from wars and tribal army decision + extra troops from steward, you have neverending conquest... until threat becomes unbearable.

Magyars collapse 9/10 in 769 start.

 

[Zsrai]

I don't get why one does need to attack them so quickly in the first place. Get King ambition, subjugate/conquer neighbours, laugh at Magyars or anyone else. With prestige from wars and tribal army decision + extra troops from steward, you have neverending conquest... until threat becomes unbearable.

Magyars collapse 9/10 in 769 start.

It's this. And if RNGesus hates you and the Magyars attack you first, instead of someone else, just restart. They should do so within about 15 minutes of play at speed 5, so you'll know if you're doomed pretty fast.

 

[Bernard95]

From a quick game, no one is really going to bother you right away since everyone around you has about 1k. Kind of like when you play a horde, your neighbors are pretty much just waiting for you to screw up so they can subjugate you. Depending on the RNG, hope that maybe you raise a host of warriors, happen to get decent martial skill on Dubrova, or just wait until someone else loses some troops for whatever reason then strike. Take the Become Queen of Ruthenia ambition and give yourself the power to revoke titles on Day 1. When you win that first war against whoever and your truce expires, place your army on top of your new vassal's capital and then proceed to revoke so you get some land. Pretty much your general strategy though is just going to be run from the hordes by subjugating what's around you until you have some prestige to work with. When you have say 1.5 or 2k in prestige hire a few tribal armies and then proceed to bum rush the Magyar/Khazar the capital holdings. Also note that you shouldn't just look at the top liege's troops before you declare- each clan maintains its own army that will join its liege. Like I had said before, you definitely want to at least bring twice what they have if not more and if you can help it lure them into your territory shoud you have to fight them.

 

[DukeDayve]

Are you playing as tribal Kiev, or a later feudal Kiev? Because tribals are rarely going to beat nomads. Tribals have mostly light infantry, some archers, few heavy infantry, tiny amounts of light cavalry and basically no (or literally no) heavy cavalry. Oh - and no horse archers.

Nomads have super duper blitzkrieg elite panzer cavalry divisions.