What is With Some People's Obsession with ROTW?

[Kyoumen]

ROTW is not balanced. ROTW still exists only to provide easy conquests for Europe and is held back by a myriad of unrealistic mechanics.

It's not totally balanced, but there was enormous amounts of work put into it, it is now much better than in any other Paradox game, and it's BS to say that it still only exists to provide easy conquest for Europe.

 

[Taterthomp2]

Yeah, but my point is Europe has to be given certain weighted mechanics to ensure that there is some semblence of recognizable historical accuracy.

And before it even appears, don't hit me with 'anything can and should happen' there are structural facts why some regions and societies just weren't going to make it as superowers or even regional powers, and that's why many of the people's of games timeline were subjagated, or amalgamated into singular nations.

I am fully accepting of balancing Hordes, Ming, Japan, or some other nations, but the fact remains, at least to be, Europe should be given balanced but weightedl treatment mechanically to ensure its acsendency ... because that's what happened.

The game doesn't overly rely on fixed events shaping the world, and instead opts for dynamtic interaction, but that has to be slightly railroaded to ensure logical gameplay and logical historical outcomes.



Again, to me this is both a balancing issue, and just accepting that some weight has to be placed in favour of Europe to ensure a logical historical playthrough.

Playing India, uniting it, and having that fun, without Europe turning up at some point would be silly, equally having Europe colonize all of India would be quite silly, it's a balance issue.

But its the sheer determination of some people to make the ROTW the focus of the game that seems bizarre to me, say whatever you like, Europe colonized, subjagated or influenced vast swathes of land by 1821.

Should Europe be balanced so that the whole world isn't painted a few colours ... hell yes ... but equally some ROTW nations should be dommed from the start, and have a difficult almost impossible feel to them, even under player control.


EDIT



I know I shouldn't feed the trolls, but I just had to respond to this ... are you f*cking serious?

EUIV is deep down a White Supremecist game? Really? That's really what your saying? Like I said, I've sat through the Post-Colonial studies lectures ... even die hard champions of native people's acknowledge Europe's (often negative, but also plenty positive) impact on world history.

A 'historical' and that's the key word, 'historical' grand strategy game covering this period has to reflect the fact Europe could and did end up in a position of dominance by the periods end.

That's not some white power revisionism, that's just the way the world's cookie crumbled for a variety of economic and social factors. Europe should be open to assault from powers like the Ottomans, revived hordes, or even the Chinese to an extent, but, and as I said, I have been to some pretty liberal lectures, history, at the end of the day is history.

As an undergrad for Cultural Anthropology, I'm really missing what you having been to lectures has to do with the gameplay mechanics balances of Europa Universalis...

The reason I am upset by the same continent colonization nerf is because it ONLY effects the provinces you colonise AFTER a start date... so russia in 1588 will be immensely more powerful than russia that STARTED in 1444 ironman, and built it up with PLAYER INGENUITY to the SAME ammount of provinces, because there is that heinous monstrous creature of a patch-piece there.

Also.

Ming were more advanced than all of europe combined in the year 1444.

Ottomons were slightly more advanced than all of europe in 1444 too (and were not in decline yet, either.)

Maybe you don't know that sitting through a lecture, and absorbing actual information are very different things...?

(But I won't say chinese tech should be 100% or something like that. it should not. but 2? )

also there is... a bug... (yes a bug) for any nation that starts with a dip tech below 3...

so, that's a real bummer. can't use naval templates becuase light ships lower button is gone. :|

for that matter, the renaissance was made possible by the reclaimation of spain to catholic europe, and the massive libraries left there at Toledo and places like it. Muslim learning. :/

I'm white, icelandic, the most pure white you can get. (i've never touched or seen in person a single non-white person in my life. :/)

 

[toroltao]

I'm white, icelandic, the most pure white you can get. (i've never touched or seen in person a single non-white person in my life. :/)

Things just got serious. Intensifies.

 

[Taterthomp2]

I´ll not even argue the jistorical angle.

But from a gameplay perspective its utterly boring that there are nations that just exist to be facerolled by superior foes.

Why explore to find out poor places?
Why conquer crappy provinces?
Why exploit worthless places?

And as you said:

'Europa' Universalis based on a period when Europe went from being a bit of a backward, dirt poor, piece of crap, to global colonizer and subjagator

Thing is Europe doesn´t go from underdog to top dog, it starts mostly as top dog and exists only to dominate from day one. Any sense of pacing is killed since you can pretty much dominate the RotW with little thought after a few years.

Even if we go with the Yroop Universalis angle, the way the RotW is atm dumbs down and makes playing as European nations less enjoyable.

And really the history angle goes out of the window when Ottomans, Mughals and China all fail to perform to their historical levels.

is these typos on purpose, or slangs?

 

[Taterthomp2]

Things just got serious. Intensifies.

i only say so to make very clear that i am not a white hater, or something silly. nor am i a anybody hater. there is a reason iceland is the most peaceful nation on earth. nobody wants to bother attacking us, all we got is fish, and we dont want to bother attacking nobody, cos all we got again is fish XP

 

[Oddb@ll]

Haha epic thread. I have also always wondered why some seem so overly enthusiastic about rotw.

I view it as a sort of EU 'hipsters'. They only play obscure, small nations and think of big European powers as "mainstream".

"Yeah, I actually only play as a small tribe in Mesoamerica, everything else is just so generic dude. I dont play the game like they WANT me to play it, Im not conformist."

 

[Taterthomp2]

Haha epic thread. I have also always wondered why some seem so overly enthusiastic about rotw.

I view it as a sort of EU 'hipsters'. They only play obscure, small nations and think of big European powers as "mainstream".

"Yeah, I actually only play as a small tribe in Mesoamerica, everything else is just so generic dude. I dont play the game like they WANT me to play it, Im not conformist."

Welll...
I dont like playing most of europe because after 1100 hours in europe, playing everything from aachen to wurzburg... i still want to play the game, but in new ways, with new challenges...the only issue is

the new ways and challenges are not worth the time they take to test them out usually.

Korea is a GOOD rotw start. especially now.

however, INCA for instance...
if ANYONE on this ENTIRE forum

tells me they EVERY had fun playing INCA before AOW...

>___> i will ask them to produce prove that htey are not crazy.

INCA NEEDED WORK lol.

only discover 1 country, your neighbor, and if you conquer them, its like 50 years before you can BEGIN exploring ANYTHING lol.

some of the ROTW NEEDED help.

Whether you like it or not, and whether you played it or not.

 

[wingzero890]

Haha epic thread. I have also always wondered why some seem so overly enthusiastic about rotw.

I view it as a sort of EU 'hipsters'. They only play obscure, small nations and think of big European powers as "mainstream".

"Yeah, I actually only play as a small tribe in Mesoamerica, everything else is just so generic dude. I dont play the game like they WANT me to play it, Im not conformist."

I think most people here are speaking about the India and China Arabia and Persian regions when we refer to ROTW.

Also there was literally an entire expansion (Conquest of Paradise) that gave new world tribes a whole slew of mechanics. So playing in the new world IS how they want you to play the game, supposedly.

 

[DevastatingTech]

EUROPE is ruler of the WORLD. European people is better than other people of world. Europe will "colonise" all the world and will rule the world. Europe must annex China. Hordes are invaders, poor barbars. Nerf Ottomans. France not stronk. Africa is forest who lives inside as bloodsucker and desert. ROTW is poor. Europe is da best. Natives must die. Natives go to hell. Muslims are terror. Natives must die in their homeland by rifles. Remove kebab. "Rest of the World". Europe is rich. Colonise Siberia and change their culture totally. Japan must be annexed. Europe is pure. Europe is clever. RULE THE WORLD. Mwahahaha.

 

[Payens]

is these typos on purpose, or slangs?

Really? Are you going to play the grammar nazi now, just after we had a thread closed that questioned this attitude in the first place? Come on...

As to the topic: ROTW has always been of interest to people that want to experience something different than Europe. Some mechanics introduced do however handicap ROTW unfairly. It's just wrong to put arbitrary handicaps that don't even fit a general game mechanic onto ROTW nations. They are already second-class powers due to the tech group. There is no need to penalize them even further and make them essentially unfun to play. By making them unfun to play, they become nothing more than an easy target for Europe.

 

[toroltao]

I think most people here are speaking about the India and China Arabia and Persian regions when we refer to ROTW.

Also there was literally an entire expansion (Conquest of Paradise) that gave new world tribes a whole slew of mechanics. So playing in the new world IS how they want you to play the game, supposedly.

I was going to say this but didn't know how to put it.

Well simply put playing as a "small tribe" in Mesoamerica would probably be preferable right now compared to the ROTW.

 

[Taterthomp2]

Really? Are you going to play the grammar nazi now, just after we had a thread closed that questioned this attitude in the first place? Come on...

As to the topic: ROTW has always been of interest to people that want to experience something different than Europe. Some mechanics introduced do however handicap ROTW unfairly. It's just wrong to put arbitrary handicaps that don't even fit a general game mechanic onto ROTW nations. They are already second-class powers due to the tech group. There is no need to penalize them even further and make them essentially unfun to play. By making them unfun to play, they become nothing more than an easy target for Europe.

no i just wanted to know is it a pun "jist and history"
and i dont recognize other word at all

i am not even 100% proficient at english...

 

[CzechKronner]

ROTW is actually fine. Maybe a bit too good.

 

[toroltao]

ROTW is actually fine. Maybe a bit too good.

Ya I hate it when those small tribes in Mesoamerica colonize the world before Portugal does. Ruins immersion for me completely.

 

[Dr. B]

Haha epic thread. I have also always wondered why some seem so overly enthusiastic about rotw.

I view it as a sort of EU 'hipsters'. They only play obscure, small nations and think of big European powers as "mainstream".

"Yeah, I actually only play as a small tribe in Mesoamerica, everything else is just so generic dude. I dont play the game like they WANT me to play it, Im not conformist."

OP: here you have the answer, this guy nailed it
It is what happens when you play too much.

 

[wingzero890]

OP: here you have the answer, this guy nailed it
It is what happens when you play too much.

Ming, Vijayanagar, Timurids, Manchuria, Japan, Ayutthaya. So obscure! Who ever heard of those tiny insignificant nations, dynasties, and people?

Also, he didn't 'nail it' since CoP expansion added tons of mechanics for new world tribes, so playing them is playing the game as paradox intended, and in fact conforming.

 

[Taterthomp2]

Ya I hate it when those small tribes in Mesoamerica colonize the world before Portugal does. Ruins immersion for me completely.

i never see this before... but i tend to stay out of america unless i'm playing in it, and when i do play in it... well...

spain always seems to eliminate all new world competition by 1600. 1.7 at least.

i have been avoid playing NA in 1.8... don't see much point to the system until wiz comes out with a idea to (even extremely slowly and costly) lower the 50% cap over time.

 

[toroltao]

i never see this before... but i tend to stay out of america unless i'm playing in it, and when i do play in it... well...

spain always seems to eliminate all new world competition by 1600. 1.7 at least.

i have been avoid playing NA in 1.8... don't see much point to the system until wiz comes out with a idea to (even extremely slowly and costly) lower the 50% cap over time.

I was being sarcastic but thanks for reiterating my point. Continental natives can't even colonize their own continent. :wacko:

 

[D-A-C]

Haha epic thread. I have also always wondered why some seem so overly enthusiastic about rotw.

I view it as a sort of EU 'hipsters'. They only play obscure, small nations and think of big European powers as "mainstream".

"Yeah, I actually only play as a small tribe in Mesoamerica, everything else is just so generic dude. I dont play the game like they WANT me to play it, Im not conformist."

Lol, this made me laugh alot.

Behind all the legitimate arguments for some balancing needing done I sort of got the sense of that aswell.



Anyway, my final thought is, balances do need to be worked on, but that's not just ROTW, that's everywhere, so the game is stronger and more interesting, but my thinking is this:

If China or other provinces are made wealthy, if their tech is buffed, if various things happen to make them stronger. won't they end up blobbing and end up too powerful? Okay, so China was richer or more advanced in 1444, I accept that, but if you implement that, and it probably should happen as was mentioned to make them fun to conquer, you'll have to design a whole other series of nerfs to stop them ahistorically stomping over everything and anything they come into contact with.

Then won't that lead to more complaints of artificial mechanics limiting your ability to forge an Empire out of the Inca's, or the Iroquois, or the Najd etc, ?

Then again, isn't it fun when Aztecs invade Europe, China absorbs everything around it and ends up in European Russia, the NA tribes colonize and own centralized states in America, and a whole postmdern reverse history takes place, where the dominators become the dominated ... take that Europe and you Paradox crypto fascists!

 

[DevastatingTech]

I was being sarcastic but thanks for reiterating my point. Continental natives can't even colonize their own continent. :wacko:

Yes, another most stupid thing is;

Nomads can't occupy their homeland Siberia without colonising. I've never seen a Turk/Mongol general colonising their homelands while migrating to other regions in Asia with a hat on their heads and a rifle in their hands. What we don't know about Mete Han and Attila or Genghis Khan? What's wrong with that PI.