What is With Some People's Obsession with ROTW?

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Freudia

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Again, to me this is both a balancing issue, and just accepting that some weight has to be placed in favour of Europe to ensure a logical historical playthrough.

Europe already comes out on top, though. What do you want them to do? Come out more on top? They already routinely dominate the Americas, parts of Africa, and a majority of Asia in the hands of the AI. It's only when a player gets involved that things start to get a bit ahistoric, but that's to be expected.

but equally some ROTW nations should be dommed from the start, and have a difficult almost impossible feel to them, even under player control.

But those starts would have to be doomed for other reasons, not because of European interaction. Making those starts doomed due to European interaction would require either Europe becoming even stronger than they already are or railroading (ergo "Oh hey, European colonists have arrived! You die." DHEs or something).
 

highsis

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Europe has the fastest tech, and Pre-AOW, Asian basetax was 20% of its historical value. (http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum...ically-it-should-be-5-times-richer-in-basetax.)

Given these facts, how could you call it whining when players ask for ROTW's buff? Europe already has "certain weighted mechanics to ensure that there is some semblance of recognizable historical accuracy." you wanted, to grossly exaggerated extent.
 

oblio-

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Europe has certain mechanics that make it way stronger than the rest of the world.
If it is a lot stronger than everyone else (instead of just a bit stronger), what happens is:

1. After a while you get to know 99% of the region's dynamics and get bored.
2. You want to do ahistorical stuff after you've beaten the European great powers, instead conquer land in Central Asia, and find out that Ming/Bahmanis/etc. are made out of paper. Instead of an additional challenge, you find punching bags. Boring.
3. You actually start playing there and notice that the other guys are just filler content. Which is again boring.

If playing in Europe "gets boring", the problem is with the game's mechanics and immersion, not Europe itself. There's more to experience in 500 years of that continent than you will ever have the chance of knowing in your life.
There's more to experience in 500 years of Amazonian tribe history than you will have the chance of knowing in your life. People are that way, complicated, and therefore history is too.
And this game is not history, it's simple: conquer land. Be careful too keep a lid on the conquered provinces. Conquer more land when everything is pacified.
 

balmung60

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I care about the ROTW because that "rest of the world" is a quite large majority of the world. Also, I like to turn the tables on real history. Britain conquered India, so I'll do the reverse. Austria stayed HREmperor pretty much the whole time, so I'll get them off the throne as soon as possible (bonus points for completely wiping out house von Habsburg). Prussia rose to power, so I'll smother it in the crib and establish Hansaeatic dominance. Steppe nomads gradually fell by the wayside and got conquered, so I'll choose one and conquer the conquerors. Poland got partitioned, so I'll take them and partition Russia, Prussia, Sweden, and basically everyone else.

At release, the second largest city in the world (Vijayanagara) was a base tax 2 wasteland. In 1.8, it got buffed to a staggering base tax of, wait for it... 5. It's not even the richest province in its country, despite the fact that it should be on par with the largest cities of China and Europe (and I'm really not sure why they don't just buff it to 10 or 15 - I've set it to 15 and the extra tax and manpower doesn't lead to Vijayanagar ROFLstomping everyone else). I know that it got sacked and destroyed, but that's the kind of thing DHEs are for.

In the current release, same-continent colonization was nerfed. Unless you are or ever have been a colonial nation, in which case, you get to ignore this nerf. Why? Because otherwise, Europeans might not feel sufficiently compelled to colonize the Americas, while anyone playing the natives has to comfort themselves with how many more provinces they can have (and only get half out of). There could be an internally consistent system here (I've proposed one or two) that would put everyone on equal footing while still nerfing same-continent colonization for the places where it's most "problematic", or a simpler rule like "tariffs give twice as much to their overlord as they take from the CN" (effectively nullifying the LA penalty for the overlord while not giving magic powers to CNs). Anything that wouldn't make the situation a giant "screw you" to well-played Native Americans, who should be able to, through reforming and westernizing, close the gap with the colonizers. I'm particularly steamed about this because it means that the natives and the colonizers (even if the colonizers are natives from the other American continent) have fundamentally different potential. No matter how well played a Native American nation/tribe is, it will never be equal to a colonial nation that occupies the same land.

Tech penalties are fine. Europe caught up and pulled ahead in this period, and I can deal with that. That Europe gets slightly better late-game units is also something I can deal with, as is the fact that Europe gets more flavor. However, certain things (eg. the quadruple whammy of worse ROTW units, worse ROTW tech growth, and getting those worse units at later techs, and reduced MP gains that the early versions of the game had, the constant horde nerfs (the first few (like must reform to westernize) were okay, but "must reform to become Persia or Mughals" and "no foreign core recruitment" are going too far) and magic colonial nation super administration powers in the current version) are just going too far. Different nations can start at different levels, but even nations that failed (eg. Byzantium, Vijayanagar, Ming, Native American tribes and nations, steppe hordes, etc.) should have the potential to match or surpass those who succeeded (eg. France, Great Britain, and Russia).

And the game is called Europa Universalis because it's named after a board game of the same name.
 

toroltao

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3. You actually start playing there and notice that the other guys are just filler content. Which is again boring.

And when you do get out of Europe you find out the rest of the world is not given as much depth, it makes the game feel cheap and unrewarding to me.
 

WSnova

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I´ll not even argue the jistorical angle.

But from a gameplay perspective its utterly boring that there are nations that just exist to be facerolled by superior foes.

Why explore to find out poor places?
Why conquer crappy provinces?
Why exploit worthless places?

And as you said:

'Europa' Universalis based on a period when Europe went from being a bit of a backward, dirt poor, piece of crap, to global colonizer and subjagator

Thing is Europe doesn´t go from underdog to top dog, it starts mostly as top dog and exists only to dominate from day one. Any sense of pacing is killed since you can pretty much dominate the RotW with little thought after a few years.

Even if we go with the Yroop Universalis angle, the way the RotW is atm dumbs down and makes playing as European nations less enjoyable.

And really the history angle goes out of the window when Ottomans, Mughals and China all fail to perform to their historical levels.
 

D-A-C

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Just so we are clear, I am not saying the ROTW doesn't deserve to be looked at and balanced, because, as has been mentioned, if other countries are stronger, then that makes Europes game even more interesting rather than just showing up, and auto-winning/painting the map their colour.

However the two points I would make are:

1. As I have been saying Europe should have an advantage long-term so that by games end it is land grabbing and fighting around the world. I UNDERSTAND, it has weighted mechanics already, but people championing ROTW I feel shouldn't want equal playing fields over the course of the game. That's just how I feel.

2. Again, I am not saying things don't need balanced or looked at for the rest of the world, but, and while its great you can, some nations should just be there to be removed from the map. It's great the game let's you play this or that small nation, but some of them should just be gone. Ok, so Europe is too powerful and they get wiped out 50 or 100 years early, that's a balance issue, like too fast and too much colonizing ... but the fact remains, to me at least, some nations just are not viable to be balanced around.

When you say you want China balanced, Hordes balanced or even places like Japan, Indian states and things like that, I can get behind it as it makes Europe's fights more interested.

BUT you have to have them limited in some way to reflect the fact they didn't become world pwers everytime, and some of the smaller nations just need to be sacrificed when it comes to balance, they just have to end up becoming obliterated, I mean I am not even a fan of Byzantine or Albania survivalist, so it's not as if there aren't some places in Europe, that whilst they existed at the start, really should end up being absorbed 9.9 times out of 10.
 

toroltao

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You're missing the point completely. I don't want the ROTW to be fleshed out to make playing as a European nation more interesting, although if that happens, which it most likely will, then great. I want the ROTW to be balanced for its own sake and the sake as people playing as those nations.

I'm guessing you completely ignore the ROTW and completely focus on Europe so it's understandable, but European nations already have disproportionate power, depth, and historical accuracy compared to the ROTW.

I don't want the ROTW to be overpowered. I want it to reflect real world history properly. I don't want Ming to blog its way to Europe, I want it to fall to the Manchu, I want the Manchu to actually form, I want the Manchu to conquer Ming and form Qing. I want the game to be hard but fun and not full arbitrary nerfs meant to keep certain large empires from blobbing, but in practice cripple them.
 

Jokolytic

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You're missing the point completely. I don't want the ROTW to be fleshed out to make playing as a European nation more interesting, although if that happens, which it most likely will, then great. I want the ROTW to be balanced for its own sake and the sake as people playing as those nations.

I'm guessing you completely ignore the ROTW and completely focus on Europe so it's understandable, but European nations already have disproportionate power, depth, and historical accuracy compared to the ROTW.

I don't want the ROTW to be overpowered. I want it to reflect real world history properly. I don't want Ming to blog its way to Europe, I want it to fall to the Manchu, I want the Manchu to actually form, I want the Manchu to conquer Ming and form Qing. I want the game to be hard but fun and not full arbitrary nerfs meant to keep certain large empires from blobbing, but in practice cripple them.

Uh, so you don't want alternate history?
 

toroltao

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Uh, so you don't want alternate history?

Alternate history is only as fun as the authenticity of the world it takes place in.
 

Kyoumen

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1. As I have been saying Europe should have an advantage long-term so that by games end it is land grabbing and fighting around the world. I UNDERSTAND, it has weighted mechanics already, but people championing ROTW I feel shouldn't want equal playing fields over the course of the game. That's just how I feel.

Who has been arguing this? Do these people actually exist? You've been on the Paradox forums for three years and if you've spent any of it on this forum or the EUIII forum you know there's a thread exactly like this one, with the same arguments on both sides, once a month if not more often.

But it never includes any significant contingent "ROTW should be exactly as strong as Europe". Saying "the rest of the world is ahistorically weak", or "this region of the world techs too slowly" isn't the same thing. Europe didn't conquer China in the EU time period (or any other time period) because it was functionally impossible. It was, by contrast, rather easy for a mid-tier European power to do - so people wanted China to be stronger. That isn't the same was wanting China to conquer England, or to be the same as England.

2. Again, I am not saying things don't need balanced or looked at for the rest of the world, but, and while its great you can, some nations should just be there to be removed from the map. It's great the game let's you play this or that small nation, but some of them should just be gone. Ok, so Europe is too powerful and they get wiped out 50 or 100 years early, that's a balance issue, like too fast and too much colonizing ... but the fact remains, to me at least, some nations just are not viable to be balanced around.

Like what? Again, you're not naming any specifics. WHO, precisely, exists only to be obliterated outside of Europe?
 

colinljx

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To the OP,
Imagine the Asians(Chinese, Korean, Japanese, Indian etc.) making a game about the world of this century decades later. In this game, the Asian countries start out with better tech and tech speed modifier even though "historically" they were not as advanced at the beginning, and they have more and wealthier provinces, better units, more interesting events, etc.. Will YOU defend this game with all its ahistorical settings, which the devs used to justify "balance", because it's called "Asiana Universlis" or some other similar names?
 

wingzero890

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I care about the ROTW because that "rest of the world" is a quite large majority of the world...

At release, the second largest city in the world (Vijayanagara) was a base tax 2 wasteland...

No matter how well played a Native American nation/tribe is, it will never be equal to a colonial nation that occupies the same land....

Tech penalties are fine. Europe caught up and pulled ahead in this period, and I can deal with that...

And the game is called Europa Universalis because it's named after a board game of the same name...

This post is pretty much /thread. I don't feel the need to write a long post explaining why the OP is wrong now thanks to you, +1 if I could.

Also, @ the OP

post-32322-Bender-haha-gif-Futurama-Oh-wa-PgCH.gif
 

oblio-

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1. As I have been saying Europe should have an advantage long-term so that by games end it is land grabbing and fighting around the world. I UNDERSTAND, it has weighted mechanics already, but people championing ROTW I feel shouldn't want equal playing fields over the course of the game. That's just how I feel.
Europe has so many advantages it's not even funny. There's a huge list of things helping Europe both in 1444 and over the years so that players afraid of some sort of Euro-collapse in EU4 are just paranoid.
 

wingzero890

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Europe has so many advantages it's not even funny. There's a huge list of things helping Europe both in 1444 and over the years so that players afraid of some sort of Euro-collapse in EU4 are just paranoid.

Yep, Europe starts off ahead and stays ahead for the entire game in every area. ROTW is, and has always been fodder for Europe in this game.

Ideally, Europe would start off behind but be able to catch up and begin surpassing the East in the 1600s.
 
D

DevastatingTech

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Oh c'mon guys. This is just PI's marketing policy. Players of this game mostly Western and PI is based on Sweden. What you expect?

PI's opinion = "Why would PI give to hordes the power they deserve? Are there any Mongol or Central Asian Turk playing that game? Are we descendents of Hordes? Why would PI makes hordes strong and blockades blobbing of Europe?"
If PI gives France the weakness they deserve; probably French players will be distraught.

"DON'T EXPECT ANY HISTORICAL ACCURACY FROM PI'S GAMES"
 
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uishax

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Aow already made ROTW balanced, the rest of the world has to be RICH in order for it to be actual prizes. Pre AOW some tiny german villages are richer than India or Chinese cities, conquering ROTW just loses its allure.
 

wingzero890

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Aow already made ROTW balanced, the rest of the world has to be RICH in order for it to be actual prizes. Pre AOW some tiny german villages are richer than India or Chinese cities, conquering ROTW just loses its allure.

ROTW is not balanced. ROTW still exists only to provide easy conquests for Europe and is held back by a myriad of unrealistic mechanics.
 
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