What is the point of discipline?
- Thread starter Stratagyfan101
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Discipline reduces the damage you take and increases the damage you deal out by its percentage. It's a wonderful thing.
How? I always max out discipline, spend hundreds of ducats to get the a level 1 commandant and I still routinely take more losses than opponents.
Does it interact with morale. Also, what the hell does morale do because there is no information in game.
The wiki is pretty damn good 
https://eu4.paradoxwikis.com/Land_warfare#Morale
https://eu4.paradoxwikis.com/Discipline
IIRC the hint thing explains these things in-game as well to a certain degree, but it's been a while.
https://eu4.paradoxwikis.com/Land_warfare#Morale
https://eu4.paradoxwikis.com/Discipline
IIRC the hint thing explains these things in-game as well to a certain degree, but it's been a while.
Wow, loaded question. I would advise reading up on combat mechanics on the wiki in general. There is a lot to know. Discipline isn't the only thing that affects battles. Terrain, generals, morale, and combat ability are just a few other things. There are tons of guides out there to look at.
General rule of thumb though: morale increases matter more early game, while discipline can be more helpful as time goes on. A bit more to it than that, but it's a helpful guideline.
General rule of thumb though: morale increases matter more early game, while discipline can be more helpful as time goes on. A bit more to it than that, but it's a helpful guideline.
More directly: Military Tactics.
Military Tactics reduces the damage you take. This is influenced by tech, and then a modifier by discipline. 5% discipline is only a small amount early game- since the military tactics are low at this time. Morale is better early game.
I'd say your loses are higher because of poorer generals, bad terrain, possibly lower tech. Also depends who you are and who you're fighting- because of tech groups.
Military Tactics reduces the damage you take. This is influenced by tech, and then a modifier by discipline. 5% discipline is only a small amount early game- since the military tactics are low at this time. Morale is better early game.
I'd say your loses are higher because of poorer generals, bad terrain, possibly lower tech. Also depends who you are and who you're fighting- because of tech groups.
Discipline is the tie breaker. The difference in die rolls is the face breaker.
No amount of discipline is going to save you from a facing a 6/6/x/x general while you have terrain penalties.
No amount of discipline is going to save you from a facing a 6/6/x/x general while you have terrain penalties.
So discipline only matters if I tie the AI's die roll? How do I overcome a +2 Shock and Fire bonus, and -1 terrain penalty?
The wiki is pretty damn good
https://eu4.paradoxwikis.com/Land_warfare#Morale
IIRC the hint thing explains these things in-game as well to a certain degree, but it's been a while.
So morale does nothing other than determine how long a unit can fight? That section must be missing information because it says nothing about how morale decreases besides a base .001 or .002. It just describes the god awful retreat mechanic.
Not really...
In the end, everything matters. But as certain nations (Prussia) you can stack so many Discipline, Morale, Combat Ability and general buffs that you can stack wipe an army twice your size in two quick battles.
A general rule for my games is always picking Defensive, or Offensive Ideas for my first pick. Offensive gives you a shock pip to all of your generals you recruit, which is important because shock is better early game- later on the game moves in favor of Fire. Shock is the infantry and cavalry charge, so cavalry is superior early game- but very expensive.
Morale is also very important early game, hence the Defensive ideas. They'll give you another 15% morale, and not to mention the first idea in it giving you yearly Army Tradition. Army Tradition also effects your morale. Morale also counts for Morale Damage to the enemy by the way. So if your army can take enough damage- despite being outclassed by the enemy- your morale could be higher and you could just hold there longer, until they rout. And in an even fight, you'll win because of higher morale. You have more, and you deal more.
This is a very general summary though, it's a bit more in-depth. Like damage from die rolls etc. Just never attack damn mountains without like a 3 to 1 advantage for your first 500 hours of the game until you're sure you've got it down
If you want to know exactly what is wrong, feel free to post a screenshot of a battle you thought you would win, but lost. (Preferably while the battle is happening).
He has a 1000 messages and an AAR. He knows where to find out about discipline and what it does. I am sure he's just trolling to make people's day worse.
Not great to assume that, combat is pretty complex if you don't read into it carefully. I know people who have >1k hours who are pretty weak on some mechanical knowledge. A lot of people just play a lot but don't really read up or adjust when struggling to improve.
Still, the wiki is the best place to look since most of what we'd say here would be parroting that information. Doing damage and taking less is useful, but can get beaten by getting flanked or being out-teched/inferior morale unless the discipline advantage is large.
Discipline matters a lot more in MP than SP because human opponents will consistently challenge your stacks with full CW frontage and cannons in the back with generals. In SP if you have enough morale, the AI will frequently avoid challenging complete stacks and will path in ways that let you attack with 80 vs 50 and a morale advantage...a situation where discipline doesn't help the AI much.
Still, the wiki is the best place to look since most of what we'd say here would be parroting that information. Doing damage and taking less is useful, but can get beaten by getting flanked or being out-teched/inferior morale unless the discipline advantage is large.
Discipline matters a lot more in MP than SP because human opponents will consistently challenge your stacks with full CW frontage and cannons in the back with generals. In SP if you have enough morale, the AI will frequently avoid challenging complete stacks and will path in ways that let you attack with 80 vs 50 and a morale advantage...a situation where discipline doesn't help the AI much.
Military Tactics disparity matters a lot. High Fire/Shock pip generals matter a lot. Fighting on favorable terrain, not attacking across a goddamn river matters a lot. Not getting caught sieging a mountain fort.
Having your full maintenance army one province away from the enemies and DOWing on the first of the month helps a lot.
Sweden or Prussia are as mentioned countries that can stack varied bonus between ideas & NIs, and wreck shit bigger than them. Sweden has a rough start at 1444, but with enough luck and time, you will wreck anything Ivan can throw at you. Might want to try them or Prussia out.
Having your full maintenance army one province away from the enemies and DOWing on the first of the month helps a lot.
Sweden or Prussia are as mentioned countries that can stack varied bonus between ideas & NIs, and wreck shit bigger than them. Sweden has a rough start at 1444, but with enough luck and time, you will wreck anything Ivan can throw at you. Might want to try them or Prussia out.
The #1 indicator of military quality is technology. If you are 2+ mil techs behind the enemy I'd be surprised if they didn't wreck you.
After you've ensured your mil tech is on par, you can start looking at other factors like discipline and army composition to see why you'd be losing. But 4 times out of 5 when a newer player is having trouble with disproportionate losses, it's because they're lagging on their tech.
After you've ensured your mil tech is on par, you can start looking at other factors like discipline and army composition to see why you'd be losing. But 4 times out of 5 when a newer player is having trouble with disproportionate losses, it's because they're lagging on their tech.
As far as casualties go, getting outflanked by the enemy is a good way to take painful losses. If they have a "wider" line than you do, the units at the edges of your line will be attacked by multiple of their units, meaning you'll take more damage. So quantity matters a lot, up until you equal the maximum width allowed by your tech level.
For a very rough overview: Dice roll + unit pips + generals & terrain gives a raw potential for how much damage is dealt. It's then modified by the damage modifier for the unit type (the fire and shock values for infantry, cav, artillery on the military page), and amplified by discipline, combat ability, etc. This is then divided by tactics, which is amplified by discipline. It's also reduced by "- damage taken" abilities.
Morale damage is dealt with separately. Mostly simply, it's damaged by taking casualties. There is also separate morale phase in addition to fire and shock phases. In this phase, each unit damages it's opposing unit's morale based on the damaging unit's maximum morale. So morale not only determines how long a unit will fight, but also how effective it is at getting the enemy unit to retreat. With a sufficient morale disparity, the lower-morale side may route even if they are actually inflicting more casualties than their opponents.
So generally speaking, for casualties: number of units (until combat width) > modifiers to dice roll > modifiers to damage dealt and taken (which is what discipline is). If you beat your opponent on discipline but lose in one of those first two categories categories, you'll likely take heavier losses.
So yeah, if they have +2 from general, and a bonus from terrain, you'll take more casualties. Discipline will mitigate this somewhat, but it is unlikely to overcome it completely.
For a very rough overview: Dice roll + unit pips + generals & terrain gives a raw potential for how much damage is dealt. It's then modified by the damage modifier for the unit type (the fire and shock values for infantry, cav, artillery on the military page), and amplified by discipline, combat ability, etc. This is then divided by tactics, which is amplified by discipline. It's also reduced by "- damage taken" abilities.
Morale damage is dealt with separately. Mostly simply, it's damaged by taking casualties. There is also separate morale phase in addition to fire and shock phases. In this phase, each unit damages it's opposing unit's morale based on the damaging unit's maximum morale. So morale not only determines how long a unit will fight, but also how effective it is at getting the enemy unit to retreat. With a sufficient morale disparity, the lower-morale side may route even if they are actually inflicting more casualties than their opponents.
So generally speaking, for casualties: number of units (until combat width) > modifiers to dice roll > modifiers to damage dealt and taken (which is what discipline is). If you beat your opponent on discipline but lose in one of those first two categories categories, you'll likely take heavier losses.
So yeah, if they have +2 from general, and a bonus from terrain, you'll take more casualties. Discipline will mitigate this somewhat, but it is unlikely to overcome it completely.
Wiki is pretty horribly outdated when it comes to military aspect so don't take everything as granted from that one.
It doesn't matter if the military tactics are high or low - because damage modifier from phases divided by tactics stays 'roughly' around the same values entire game, and any % multiplier to the tactics gives the same result -> slightly lowering RDM (Real Damage Modifier - Dmg modifier in phase / Tactics).
Or in another words divides casualties received by discipline%. And as such it's effect is the same - early or late game when it comes to it's damage reducing effects.
It doesn't matter if the military tactics are high or low - because damage modifier from phases divided by tactics stays 'roughly' around the same values entire game, and any % multiplier to the tactics gives the same result -> slightly lowering RDM (Real Damage Modifier - Dmg modifier in phase / Tactics).
Or in another words divides casualties received by discipline%. And as such it's effect is the same - early or late game when it comes to it's damage reducing effects.
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Also combat width and unit composition really matters.
It doesn't really matter if you stack 20% disciplines, morale and even 50% Cav.combat ability from the Hussars, if you really deny the support for them to deal shock damage in the early stages and not enough covers for your artilleries to deal fire damage from the backrow.
Heck I can stackwipe 60k of Ottomans while crossing the straits with only 30k units, because they have 40k artilleries with only 15k infantries to support them.
It doesn't really matter if you stack 20% disciplines, morale and even 50% Cav.combat ability from the Hussars, if you really deny the support for them to deal shock damage in the early stages and not enough covers for your artilleries to deal fire damage from the backrow.
Heck I can stackwipe 60k of Ottomans while crossing the straits with only 30k units, because they have 40k artilleries with only 15k infantries to support them.
I'm not sure about that, flanking frontline cannons ARE the best cannons.
That alone will only achieve you a pyrrhic victory. Quantity and morale is often enough though. Discipline is very satisfying though, and neccesary for nations that still doesn't dominate in late game.