What is the point of a Democratic Republic?

[Noxbru]

Hi, It might be just my ignorance showing but: What is the point of a democratic republic if the boni the other type give are bigger?

I was playing Vasconia, centralized the tribes, built cities and switched from tribal to republican government (and somehow took a max civilization level hit). In the end I ended with a democratic republic, which has +8% happiness for freeman and + 15% civilization. All the rest give +20% civilization and at least two other boni, so it somehow feels weaker in comparison.

Is this the case? Or is it that I am not realizing something and it is actually on par with the others?

 

[IsaacCAT]

Government - Imperator Wiki

imperator.paradoxwikis.com

Republican governments
Unless specified otherwise, all Republics have the following base characteristics:

National civilization value: +20%
Each ruler must be at least 35 to be elected.
Each ruler reigns for 5 years.
Each ruler can be re-elected every 10 years.
Character loyalty: +5
Changing governor policy cost: −10%
Freeman ratio National freeman desired ratio: +2.5%
Citizen ratio Desired citizen ratio in cities: +5%
Freeman ratio Desired freemen ratio in cities: +7.5%

and on top of these base characteristics you have the following to differentiate each type of government:

I may have to double check it, but democratic is not 20% + 15% civ value?

Yes, it seems less valuable that the other types of republics. The freeman happiness bonus is nice because there are many freeman but they do not have a lot of political weight.

Aristocratic look more powerful. Or Athenian Republics ofc.

The player should be able to change from one type to another, under some conditions.

 

[svalan_i_dalen]

Three idea types (military, oratory, civic) instead of 2+1 seems more flexible and allows cherrypicking best for your situation in each category.

 

[Noxbru]

Government - Imperator Wiki

imperator.paradoxwikis.com

Republican governments
Unless specified otherwise, all Republics have the following base characteristics:

National civilization value: +20%
Each ruler must be at least 35 to be elected.
Each ruler reigns for 5 years.
Each ruler can be re-elected every 10 years.
Character loyalty: +5
Changing governor policy cost: −10%
Freeman ratio National freeman desired ratio: +2.5%
Citizen ratio Desired citizen ratio in cities: +5%
Freeman ratio Desired freemen ratio in cities: +7.5%

and on top of these base characteristics you have the following to differentiate each type of government:

View attachment 706345


I may have to double check it, but democratic is not 20% + 15% civ value?

I'm afraid that no, it's just 15% civ value. So, less civ and one less modifier for being able to elect people younger and variety of ideas.

Three idea types (military, oratory, civic) instead of 2+1 seems more flexible and allows cherrypicking best for your situation in each category.

Not sure if that is worth the reduced civ and one less modifier.

 

[MagisterMundi]

(and somehow took a max civilization level hit)

This part in particular is probably tied to forming a republic revoking the "Codified State Lands" tribal decision which gives a +10% civilization value. I, too, was confused by this the first time I created a republic.

 

[Noxbru]

This part in particular is probably tied to forming a republic revoking the "Codified State Lands" tribal decision which gives a +10% civilization value. I, too, was confused by this the first time I created a republic.

Could be, but somehow feels weird: going for tribal to republic and taking a civilization hit

 

[Nostalgium]

Democratic Republic seems geared towards having longer election terms (lifelong if you can) for long-lasting and stable rulerships due to potentially younger candidates, and more flexibility in their idea picks. Civ modifier is really weird though - maybe it's to represent it as a more rural, or even tribal society, less focused on the needs of the urbanized elite? IDK.

 

[IsaacCAT]

Democratic Republic seems geared towards having longer election terms (lifelong if you can) for long-lasting and stable rulerships due to potentially younger candidates, and more flexibility in their idea picks. Civ modifier is really weird though - maybe it's to represent it as a more rural, or even tribal society, less focused on the needs of the urbanized elite? IDK.

Democrats are in favor of shortened terms. Sharing the power and the early age is to represent the recognition of merit opposite to connections achieved with time.

 

[Noxbru]

Democratic Republic seems geared towards having longer election terms (lifelong if you can) for long-lasting and stable rulerships due to potentially younger candidates, and more flexibility in their idea picks. Civ modifier is really weird though - maybe it's to represent it as a more rural, or even tribal society, less focused on the needs of the urbanized elite? IDK.

But that means picking the "Extended Terms' law. Which gives a -5 to the democratic faction.

 

[Nostalgium]

Oh yeah, I agree that it's weird - I'm just thinking out loud on how the 25-years-old floor could best be utilized mechanically, since it comes at the opportunity cost of arguably more powerful bonuses in other factions.

 

[BarbarianHunter]

It just looks that way. It's actually better for wide play than the others.
-20% army maintenance.
+20% commerce
+6% unintegrated culture group happiness
+8% freeman happiness

In order to get the matching bonus you'll have to forego the -20% army maintenance in all except aristocratic republics, but with them you get 2 military slots and no +20% commerce income.

 

[Noxbru]

Oh yeah, I agree that it's weird - I'm just thinking out loud on how the 25-years-old floor could best be utilized mechanically, since it comes at the opportunity cost of arguably more powerful bonuses in other factions.

Two terms (the other republics except oligarchic have 35 minimum age) does not amount too much if a leader can rule well into the ~70s. But maybe there's something else that I am missing.

 

[Noxbru]

It just looks that way. It's actually better for wide play than the others.
-20% army maintenance.
+20% commerce
+6% unintegrated culture group happiness
+8% freeman happiness

In order to get the matching bonus you'll have to forego the -20% army maintenance in all except aristocratic republics, but with them you get 2 military slots and no +20% commerce income.

So, the flexibility of the ideas and younger candidates at the cost of 5% civ (and associated boni) + another boni are balanced. OK I guess, I might not know the game well enough to realize that.

 

[Surimi]

Democratic Republic and Autocratic Monarchy are the "basic" civilized governments. The other variants are considered "advanced" governments and generally have better, but more specialized, bonuses.

As a tribe, when you first reform your government you get the basic government for whichever type of government you picked. The idea is that you will then adopt an advanced government later which suits your playstyle once you can meet the more demanding requirements. Just bear in mind that there is no going back. You cannot go back from an advanced to a basic government.

 

[Vityviktor]

I think roleplaying reasons are good enough (some of the Iberian and Gaulish tribes were indeed becoming senatorial republics by the time of Roman expansion, and this is only a few more steps in this process), just as wanting your tribe to become a mighty kingdom.

Also... I love Democracy. I love the Republic.

 

[Ololorium]

Democratic Republic and Autocratic Monarchy are the "basic" civilized governments. The other variants are considered "advanced" governments and generally have better, but more specialized, bonuses.

As a tribe, when you first reform your government you get the basic government for whichever type of government you picked. The idea is that you will then adopt an advanced government later which suits your playstyle once you can meet the more demanding requirements. Just bear in mind that there is no going back. You cannot go back from an advanced to a basic government.

So that's why it's impossible to convert to a Democratic Republic! For some reason I never paid attention to the bonuses it gets compared to other Republics. I kind of assumed the civ level is the same, and the bonuses are supposed to be balanced, so the only thing I looked at was the idea slots, and Democratic looked better than others except the 4-slot government forms in that regard. Because of that (and the fact that Athens start as a Democratic Republic), I believed that the Democratic Republic is actually better, and you can't convert to it as other Republics because a "corrupted" government where power is reserved for a small minority can't go back to the "pure" form.
This is kind of sad, though. For everyone who's not Athens, the "correct" way of government evolution would be Democratic Republic -> a Republic where power is in the hands of the wealthy/noble few -> a dictatorship/hereditary empire. I know that historically the "democracy" back then wasn't exactly what it is now, but still, such determinism is pretty dark.

 

[UBERWASP]

Two letters my friend "RP"

 

[Akela]

This is kind of sad, though. For everyone who's not Athens, the "correct" way of government evolution would be Democratic Republic -> a Republic where power is in the hands of the wealthy/noble few -> a dictatorship/hereditary empire. I know that historically the "democracy" back then wasn't exactly what it is now, but still, such determinism is pretty dark.

AFAIK Greek philosophers were believers in political determinism - and arguably a pretty dark form of it, at that - but those arrows go in the wrong direction. (There should also be a link back around to the start - don't know whether that makes it less sad, though, given that the basic premise is 'Good governments of any sort can't last long'.)