What is the future of missiles?

[Exarian]

So what is the current meta with regards to weapons? I always pick missiles and lasers because they seem to be the most practical in the real world sense.

Current meta?

1. Best weapons are Kinetic Artillery + Plasma Cannons. KA hit from extreme range, PC negates armor - and both hit nearly instantly, just like X weapons
2. Missiles are useless because of huge overkill, slow movement speed and extreme vulnerability to point defense (non-swarms). No strong points, really, all advantages are purely theoretical and are negated in first seconds in battle.
3. Strikecrafts cannot replenish in battle and need time to engage enemy - are just as useless as missiles.
4. Rotary autocannons have their niche on destroyers in anti-corvette job
5. Energetic torps have some use on corvettes, mainly vs Awaken Empires.
6. Lasers are outclassed by plasma and kinetics, but are still infinitely stronger then missiles
7. All X weapons have similar effectiveness, and are good in general - but fleet based on CC is stronger then fleet based on BB.

The larger battle is, the more advantageous long-range fast-hitting weapons are. Missiles slow speed makes them terrible alpha strike weapon (range advantage is completely negated by travel speed), and slow speed combined with inability to retarget makes them vulnerable to overkill issue at insane level. On top of that even small amount of PD may easily negate Your entire missile arsenal (SWARMs are invulnerable to PD, but have worse range and same problem with overkill, keeping them as useless as other missiles).

Strikecrafs have similar issues with slow speed and long engagement time, while theoretical advantage of no overkill problem is negated by inability to replenish in-battle. Don't put in on your ships, just like missiles.

 

[Archam]

Could giving AoE damage to missiles fix the issue of overkill and make them more useful ? If the initial traget is destroyed the remaining missiles would still explode at its location and cause damage to nearby ships. It would also balance PD to a certain extend. Even if few missiles reach their target it would be compensated by them damaging multiple ships.

 

[Lothmar]

My guess is 'Nothing' for a long time.

 

[AndragonLea]

I'd kinda like them to be changed to become fixed platform weapons only. Work that in with fortress / star port buffs and give them massively extended range (it makes no sense that they have less range than ballistics - nothing stops you from launching them and having them just cruise in the general direction of the enemy until the enemy comes in range for their maximum speed under propulsion, at which point they fire up and accelerate until they hit, causing them to be much too fast for most PD systems to engage in their last split seconds of life when they home in on the enemy).

Once you do that, make the PD a tad less effective. Having them on durable platforms such as fortresses fixes the "disappears when the launch platform does" issue, giving them huge range would make stations more dangerous (think leviathan, lose a bunch of ships en route, finally have stations do SOMETHING against inbound fleets rather than plinking a corvette once before they blow up to massive overkill) and would give them a reason to exist and a niche to be useful for.

You'd research missile tech later in the game when you have enough planets and advanced enough military station tech to make the attrition relevant. Suddenly, having 3 or 4 stations (such as in ringworld systems?) would make the idea of attacking such system at least somewhat more dangerous, as you'd be looking at being shot for the entirety you are cruising through that system. They'd also possibly be helpful during fleet engagements, rather than just being background fluff.

I have no idea how to solve the "retargeting" thing because I do not know how the current targeting code works. That said, there should be a way to have missile weapons work more like fighters and bombers, retargetting once the ship they were attacking died rather than just sailing off into the void.

Future tech could include sensor stations that give missile platforms in the system the ability to acquire targets anywhere within it, missile defense stations that are buried within asteroids, moons and barren planets or a repeatable "planetary defense installation" module for your star port for systems that aren't used for ship building. God knows I only use 2 or 3 of the available module slots in any system that ain't building ships.

 

[Beagá]

Could giving AoE damage to missiles fix the issue of overkill and make them more useful ? If the initial traget is destroyed the remaining missiles would still explode at its location and cause damage to nearby ships. It would also balance PD to a certain extend. Even if few missiles reach their target it would be compensated by them damaging multiple ships.

It's an option, sure, but wouldn't work plausibly versus battleships.

I'm still more in favor of missile upgrades, two extra tiers of torpedoes, missiles as long range PD option and a spinal XL mount that would be a missile salvo, rather than a big one.

Another idea I had was the possibility of 2 XL mounts, one being dedicated to missiles (still have memories of those brutal Vaygr battlecruisers... Imagine not one, but THREE spinal mounted kynetic guns with a complement of heavy missiles. One of the most impressive capital ship designs ever)

 

[Sopbucket]

If overkill is a problem, why not just up the damage and/or range to compensate? At some point they'll be viable. Maybe we'll get a better solution in the future, but for now this is better than nothing. All it would take is a little testing.

 

[AndragonLea]

If overkill is a problem, why not just up the damage and/or range to compensate? At some point they'll be viable. Maybe we'll get a better solution in the future, but for now this is better than nothing. All it would take is a little testing.

Not really, unfortunately. The problem is that all of your ships come with targetting priorities. They'll target the closest ship that best satisfies that condition, which means many of your ships will target the same enemy ship.

It doesn't matter even if each missile is a one-hit-kill when all your missiles target the same ship. The first one kills it, all others and the next 2 salvos of their originating ships will be wasted.

It's one of the reasons that quicker cycling weapons are good - if each salvo is overkill, having more salvos is key.

 

[BrokenSky]

you know what would be interesting (probably bad, but worth thinking about)? Having missiles which are simultaneously targeting multiple enemy ships and are in several different locations simultaneously (the graphical representation of missiles are just for show anyway, right?), which are destroyed, doing damage, the first time the hit an enemy. Point defence doesn't destry all the missiles but can shoot down one possible missile location (so say I shoot missile 1 at ships A, B and C. B has point defence and shoots down 1B, and the missile 1A gets to A before 1C gets to C, so A takes the damage).

As a side note, if A were destroyed before the missile reached it, 1C would hit instead.

Call them like "quantum missiles" or something silly like that?

 

[Kayden_II]

Just an other Idea to put this Stuff into a bigger Box ...

Different Power-Costs for Weapons ...
1. The Explosive Weapons (Missiles and Torpedos) have (in Principal) their own "Power" (Batteries + Fuel + Explosive Material) to destroy the Enemy ...
= Low-Power-Cost-Weapons for Ships ! ...
2. A Kinetic Weapon is using (at Least) the Power of its own Ship to generate a Magnetic-Field within Itself within its Ship to fire its Projectiles at the Enemy ...
= Mid-Power-Cost-Weapons for Ships ! ...
3. An Energetic Weapon is transforming the (whole) Power of its own Ship to destroy the Enemy ...
= High-Power-Cost-Weapons for Ships ! ...

I mean, even in the Targeting-Process, You need the Power of your Ship to align an energetic or a kinetic Weapon in the Direction of the Enemy ...
Explosive Weapons can have their own "Targeting-Device" ...

Conclusion:
A Low-Power-Cost-Weapon, like an explosive One, like a Missile-One doesn't need so many Reactors to compensate its Power-Costs on a Ship, so that this Ship has more Slots (left) for Armour-/Shield-Modules.

 

[Adamsrealm]

Add retargeting for missles when their current target is destroyed.
Reduce point defence effectivness against them.
Increase travel speed slightly.

Make them cost less energy than kinetic/energy counterparts,

Have smaller missles have higher evasion
Have larger missles have more health

To be honest I think energy and kinetic are backwards atm.

Energy should do more damage to sheilds but less to armour
Kinetic should do more damage to armour but less to sheilds

Missles are currently unavoidable (without pd).

 

[Pavane]

I win the game with weapons load outs of only missiles, explosive torpedoes, and point defences. I don't obsess about "balance" because in the greater scheme of things it is pretty trivial. Real life is always asymmetrical, and nations have to make due with what they have. If you want perfect balance then play chess.

 

[Emraldis]

I win the game with weapons load outs of only missiles, explosive torpedoes, and point defences. I don't obsess about "balance" because in the greater scheme of things it is pretty trivial. Real life is always asymmetrical, and nations have to make due with what they have. If you want perfect balance then play chess.

GO is a better balanced game than chess.

 

[Ixal]

Someone made an analysis and concluded that the graphical representation of missiles does not reflect what is going on behind the screen i.e. a ship can be damaged in combat even though no missile ever hit it visually etc.

Thus I do not know if retargeting is really an issue.
Weapon balance will likely be looked at in a future patch but as Wiz once explained the patches and expansions are thematic and the current theme is politics. Other parts of the game will only receive small fixes and tweaks, but no great overhauls.

 

[Exarian]

Someone made an analysis and concluded that the graphical representation of missiles does not reflect what is going on behind the screen i.e. a ship can be damaged in combat even though no missile ever hit it visually etc.

Thus I do not know if retargeting is really an issue.
Weapon balance will likely be looked at in a future patch but as Wiz once explained the patches and expansions are thematic and the current theme is politics. Other parts of the game will only receive small fixes and tweaks, but no great overhauls.

If general overhaul is impossible due to engine limits, then missile balance may be achieved by stats adjustment.

Simple missiles stats tweak:
- Huge (100-200%) speed boost
- Significant (20-30-40 S-M-L) range boost
- Possible damage boost (+50%?)

It will limit overkill to more reasonable levels, and will give missiles specific niche (range).
Missiles status should be changed from high_risk-no_reward to reasonable_risk-high_reward.

 

[Almond_Brown]

I win the game with weapons load outs of only missiles, explosive torpedoes, and point defences. I don't obsess about "balance" because in the greater scheme of things it is pretty trivial. Real life is always asymmetrical, and nations have to make due with what they have. If you want perfect balance then play chess.

And if remembering what all of those Chess pieces can each do is an issue, then try Checkers.

 

[Emraldis]

And if remembering what and where all the pieces can do is an issue, then try Checkers.

I dunno, It gets pretty crazy when you get a piece to the opponents side of the board...

 

[Pyramid_Head]

 

[Drakonn]

Another idea I had was the possibility of 2 XL mounts, one being dedicated to missiles (still have memories of those brutal Vaygr battlecruisers... Imagine not one, but THREE spinal mounted kynetic guns with a complement of heavy missiles. One of the most impressive capital ship designs ever)

Those were monsters versus anything below another Battlecruiser (Though I preferred the Higarran counterpart; Can't beat those massive Kinetic turrets and the Ion Cannons too)

 

[Sinister2202]

At this point, imo, missiles shouldn't be an all out weapon that empires can just casually use.

I get that nukes may not have the same devastating firy effect in space as it has on Earth, but the blast is still known to be a powerful force, especially in an environment without gravity. The fact that it can be compared to red lasers or railguns is baffling to me.

I also get that modern navies mostly fight with missiles in the 21st century, if they aren't using the gun on the DD. US navy is planning to use railgun as the main multi-role weapon though, since missiles are slow to arm, and can get shot down by ship defenses, so it is mostly used for strategic purposes. Therefore, it's kind of silly to arm the entire ship with just missiles. Ballistics are just as effective in space, if there were advanced targetting computers that assist the ships. If anything ballistics should come first before missiles, for frontal combat, and missiles for strategic combat.

So, in conclusion, I think missiles should be a special weapon. A weapon with slow fire rate, vulnerable to PD, but extremely devastating - devastating enough to have AOE damage. It would also have longer or similar range as the KA. For the weapon slot, there should be a "silo" slot just for missile types.

Small missiles carried by our modern fighters are obviously not used in this game. It's always nukes or an antimatter device. I do know that there are miniature nuclear missiles that can be fired from fighters, but we are talking about big space ships. It makes sense that ships fling nukes at one another, in a huge battlefield like space.

Oh and also, kinetics and lasers get special treatments as they are upgraded... but all missiles and explosions look the same... and it certainly doesn't look that explosive to me.

It would be great if they added some radiance or bloom effect and make the explosion a bit larger, with bright momentary flashes like nuclear detonations. And change color of the explosions for upgraded warheads like antimatter...etc.

 

[Drakonn]

At this point, imo, missiles shouldn't be an all out weapon that empires can just casually use.

I get that nukes may not have the same devastating firy effect in space as it has on Earth, but the blast is still known to be a powerful force, especially in an environment without gravity. The fact that it can be compared to red lasers or railguns is baffling to me.

I also get that modern navies mostly fight with missiles in the 21st century, if they aren't using the gun on the DD. US navy is planning to use railgun as the main multi-role weapon though, since missiles are slow to arm, and can get shot down by ship defenses, so it is mostly used for strategic purposes. Therefore, it's kind of silly to arm the entire ship with just missiles. Ballistics are just as effective in space, if there were advanced targetting computers that assist the ships. If anything ballistics should come first before missiles, for frontal combat, and missiles for strategic combat.

So, in conclusion, I think missiles should be a special weapon. A weapon with slow fire rate, vulnerable to PD, but extremely devastating - devastating enough to have AOE damage. It would also have longer or similar range as the KA. For the weapon slot, there should be a "silo" slot just for missile types.

Small missiles carried by our modern fighters are obviously not used in this game. It's always nukes or an antimatter device. I do know that there are miniature nuclear missiles that can be fired from fighters, but we are talking about big space ships. It makes sense that ships fling nukes at one another, in a huge battlefield like space.

Oh and also, kinetics and lasers get special treatments as they are upgraded... but all missiles and explosions look the same... and it certainly doesn't look that explosive to me.

It would be great if they added some radiance or bloom effect and make the explosion a bit larger, with bright momentary flashes like nuclear detonations. And change color of the explosions for upgraded warheads like antimatter...etc.

I could get behind missles being special kind of weapon.