What is the future of missiles?

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Beagá

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So any real plans for the next patch, or will they remain just as an annoying brake to torpedo research?

My suggestions would be for missile research to lead to better bombers, and also to include MOO like improvements like better armor and speed.

Also should there be even more potent torps? Maybe antimatter and dark matter torps.
 

Beagá

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We don't know.

Yes I´m aware that there is an acute lack of info regarding weapon balance as if that meant they were fine... which they kinda aren´t.

Early and mid game they are fine, I do like my torpedo cruisers besides corvettes, but it´s undeniable how much value they lose and how optional missile research is.

Extra suggestions besides the ones above: Have spinal mount that would fire a larger volley than usual (like 8 missiles) or could be upgraded to heavy missiles. Like the missile destroyer/Vaygr battlecruiser from HW 2. Also I would be fine if better version of missiles were in the package, just costed more (so you would have acess to heavy, fast, MIRVed and well armored missiles as soon as you research a new kind of missile, and then balance - should they be much more expensive? Use two slots?)

Also research to make missiles lock on new targets after the original is destroyed.

Finally a possibility to make missiles an extra, long range antri-strike craft weapon.

I know this all sounds way too MOO/Homeworld-ish, but that´s because they done it properly.

As for bombers I still think missile/torpedo tech should boost them more.
 

BlackUmbrellas

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Missiles won't be fixed until they can re-target and persist after the death of their parent ship. Simple as that. It might take further tweaks even past that to make them viable, but that's one of the biggest problems with them- the way they overkill absolutely tanks the actual DPS they're capable of compared to the hitscan weapon trees.
 

Alblaka

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As of currently, they don't have any future.

And the community already proposed tons of possible changes, fixes and tweaks, which usually boil down to
  • make missile dps more consistant (mid-flight retargeting)
  • make PD less instant-immunity to missiles (& fix 'PD-counters' like Swarm Missiles to actually work)
  • give missiles more range to give them their own niche
 

grandad1982

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Missiles won't be fixed until they can re-target and persist after the death of their parent ship. Simple as that. It might take further tweaks even past that to make them viable, but that's one of the biggest problems with them- the way they overkill absolutely tanks the actual DPS they're capable of compared to the hitscan weapon trees.
Whilst I agree with what you say surely the issue here is the number of individual missiles the game would have to track and recompute would lead to horrific slowdown. Or maybe I simply don't understand the strengths and weaknesses of modern CPUs.
 

Beagá

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Sure, it´s one of the possibilites (read my post, I mentioned it). MOO has it in the form of a research option, the Dauntless guiding system - which indeed makes missiles a complete PITA after they lose punch after better PD is developed. There too the decrease in DPS due to large volleys and missile waste was an issue. But it has a fix, and one that makes sense. Stellaris can do the same.
 

BrokenSky

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As of currently, they don't have any future.

And the community already proposed tons of possible changes, fixes and tweaks, which usually boil down to
  • make missile dps more consistant (mid-flight retargeting)
  • make PD less instant-immunity to missiles (& fix 'PD-counters' like Swarm Missiles to actually work)
  • give missiles more range to give them their own niche

Or (option 4) they could buff fortresses etc. and add in dreadnought/flagship level ships higher than battleships. Since the "persisting after target is destroyed" problem doesn't matter so much for large targets with lots of health, they could just increase the damage and have them act as tank-killers; better against targets like battleships and stations with lots of hp. By increasing missile damage and range and reducing rate of fire, buffing defence stations and adding higher tier mega-ships they would implicitly buff missiles and they could be molded to fill the niche heavy siege (strong vs. giants, weak vs. swarms).
 

Exarian

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Whilst I agree with what you say surely the issue here is the number of individual missiles the game would have to track and recompute would lead to horrific slowdown. Or maybe I simply don't understand the strengths and weaknesses of modern CPUs.

It could be a problem. There are other, easier ways of making missiles viable, like 2-step simple stats adjustment from another thread:


1. 100% movement speed for missiles (and swarms)
- critical thing to reduce overkill
- number of kinetic/energy salvos before missiles hit their target will be reduced
- point defense effectiveness will be reduced

2. 20/30/40 range boost to S/M/L missiles (Swarms considered as M)
- 130 range L missiles outrage every weapon in game (including X ones)
- 100 range M missiles outrange (or equal) every L weapon in game, making them viable alternative to KA/Plasma spam
- 70 range S missiles outrange every M weapon in game, becoming interesting weapon for corvettes and destroyers.
- 80 range Swarms finally get some potential

None of these boost is going to burn CPU, while missile may finally find their niche (range).
 

AmpsterMan

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I wonder what would happen if Pdox just made missile weapons travel faster. Like, 100% increase in speed accross the board; or perhaps higher tier missiles travel faster.
 

Hopit

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Would it be too much if they gave a super tier missiles, with their own shields and PD system (they'd be big enough for fighters to engage)
 

Summin Cool

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-Buff missile damage
-Increase Starport missile hp to high enough to ensure that they either scale with point defences, or are at end game levels. This ensures the level of protection lasers and kinetics get from Starports.
-Change Missiles so that they have an evasion scale with point defence tracking.
-Give Larger missiles less evasion and more HP
-Add XL missile weapons.

Seems to work in Blades of Stellaris so far.
 

Cordane

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There are a couple of issues (disappearance on launcher defeat, no retarget on foe defeat) that are core programming issues - those won't get resolved without some serious work involved.

Overkill should be helped somewhat with an increase in missile speed (and I would emphasize having missiles increase in speed as tech improves), but overkill is also happening because the ship targeting equations don't properly account for in-flight missiles to determine if hit-scan weapons or even additional salvos from the same missile launchers need to shoot at the same targets (again). Unless those equations also get updated, we'll still be dealing with (probably quite a bit of) overkill.

The biggest issue I think out there is still PD and Evasion for missiles (and strike craft). Missiles are the only weapon system of the Big 3 that has to deal with a fleet-layering defensive system, and then they still have to defeat the ship-level defenses, for which they have little capability (only torpedoes). (Strike craft actually get it worse because, while they do punch through a lot of the ship-level defenses, if they get shot down even once, they're done for the fight.) Fleet PD cannot continue to be as effective when layered at stopping missiles and strike craft, because it doesn't matter if each missile has 100% accuracy if less than 20% of the missiles get near their targets (versus 100% of the kinetic/energy shots getting through even though only 70-80% will hit).

The layering is the key here: if a single PD counter-attack is only 10% successful at destroying a missile, then a missile attack that should expect to face only 1 PD attack on its way to its target would need to be 111% as effective as a kinetic or energy attack when balanced for accuracy, penetration, range, RoF, etc. But add another PD attack per missile at the same level, and now the missile only gets through 81% of the time and has to be 123.5% as effective if it hits. Or if a Flak Cannon hits less often but always destroys the missile, might be 20% effective per shot, with the balancing needing the missile to be 125% (single shot) or 156% (2 shots). Right now, those per-shot success percentages for PD are a lot higher than that and the layering is pretty extensive, and yet missiles that actually get through are still far behind their kinetic and energy cousins.

Missile speed still has its uses here, too, with higher speeds keeping the number of shots against each missile down. But I'd prefer to see anti-missile PD moved mostly to the individual ship level (more Phalanx gun system and less Aegis missile system) and then have limited low-percentage fleet PD for missiles (to a lesser extent) and strike craft. While the fleet PD would seem to make more realistic sense against missiles, we've gone way past realistic on most everything else on weapons and this would be a poor place to hold some sort of realism line. Individual ship PD will be easier to balance out the effectiveness of missiles versus the other two main types, and fleet PD (including interceptor fighters) would still be there to deal with strike craft, with a smaller chance to defeat larger, less-Evasive missiles.

It's either that or we get podnaughts and Ghost Rider missiles (Honor Harrington novels)...
 

Exarian

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There are a couple of issues (disappearance on launcher defeat, no retarget on foe defeat) that are core programming issues - those won't get resolved without some serious work involved.

Overkill should be helped somewhat with an increase in missile speed (and I would emphasize having missiles increase in speed as tech improves), but overkill is also happening because the ship targeting equations don't properly account for in-flight missiles to determine if hit-scan weapons or even additional salvos from the same missile launchers need to shoot at the same targets (again). Unless those equations also get updated, we'll still be dealing with (probably quite a bit of) overkill.

The biggest issue I think out there is still PD and Evasion for missiles (and strike craft). Missiles are the only weapon system of the Big 3 that has to deal with a fleet-layering defensive system, and then they still have to defeat the ship-level defenses, for which they have little capability (only torpedoes). (Strike craft actually get it worse because, while they do punch through a lot of the ship-level defenses, if they get shot down even once, they're done for the fight.) Fleet PD cannot continue to be as effective when layered at stopping missiles and strike craft, because it doesn't matter if each missile has 100% accuracy if less than 20% of the missiles get near their targets (versus 100% of the kinetic/energy shots getting through even though only 70-80% will hit).

The layering is the key here: if a single PD counter-attack is only 10% successful at destroying a missile, then a missile attack that should expect to face only 1 PD attack on its way to its target would need to be 111% as effective as a kinetic or energy attack when balanced for accuracy, penetration, range, RoF, etc. But add another PD attack per missile at the same level, and now the missile only gets through 81% of the time and has to be 123.5% as effective if it hits. Or if a Flak Cannon hits less often but always destroys the missile, might be 20% effective per shot, with the balancing needing the missile to be 125% (single shot) or 156% (2 shots). Right now, those per-shot success percentages for PD are a lot higher than that and the layering is pretty extensive, and yet missiles that actually get through are still far behind their kinetic and energy cousins.

Missile speed still has its uses here, too, with higher speeds keeping the number of shots against each missile down. But I'd prefer to see anti-missile PD moved mostly to the individual ship level (more Phalanx gun system and less Aegis missile system) and then have limited low-percentage fleet PD for missiles (to a lesser extent) and strike craft. While the fleet PD would seem to make more realistic sense against missiles, we've gone way past realistic on most everything else on weapons and this would be a poor place to hold some sort of realism line. Individual ship PD will be easier to balance out the effectiveness of missiles versus the other two main types, and fleet PD (including interceptor fighters) would still be there to deal with strike craft, with a smaller chance to defeat larger, less-Evasive missiles.

It's either that or we get podnaughts and Ghost Rider missiles (Honor Harrington novels)...


1. Significant (100-200%) missiles speed buff can reduce overkill to acceptable level, without use of any additional CPU Power.

2. Current missiles-PD interaction turned missiles into high_risk-low_reward weapon. Adjusting PD effectiveness may reduce "risk" aspect, but it will give us "boring" interaction in return. Instead of it I prefer giving missiles their unique niche, by giving them superior range and damage, but keeping them relatively easy counterable by PD.

3. Strikecraft squadrons need to regeplenish in-battle - it is key thing to make them viable, before any other buff.
 

LiberiusX

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I'm glad you made this thread @Beagá . I can't believe they still haven't addressed weapon balance since Heinlein. I refuse to play Stellaris until they do something about this.

In the early game, if an AI has missiles as their starting weapon group, I can beat them with a 30% disadvantage in strength.

At least make it so AI cant pick missiles starting out and put a warning like "advanced players only" so new players don't get screwed.