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Evil4Zerggin

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-10% might come out to, at most, 400 points. It's not that big of a deal.

Lots of UNIs have -stab cost, so I'm wondering: if you stacked Artist advisor (-10% stab cost), Fine Arts Academy (-5%), Church Attendance Duty (-25%), Trading in Wine (-25%), and one of the -10% UNIs you could get a -75% modifier to stability cost. Pass a few appropriate acts and it will cost almost nothing. Would you then be able to go on an endgame trucebreaker spree?
 

unmerged(195685)

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Lots of UNIs have -stab cost, so I'm wondering: if you stacked Artist advisor (-10% stab cost), Fine Arts Academy (-5%), Church Attendance Duty (-25%), Trading in Wine (-25%), and one of the -10% UNIs you could get a -75% modifier to stability cost. Pass a few appropriate acts and it will cost almost nothing. Would you then be able to go on an endgame trucebreaker spree?

You forgot Orthodox religion for another -10%. Byzantium and generic orthodox countries both get -10 stab. Imperial integrity is another -10%, and curia controller is -5%. It's definitely doable, albeit a bit off-topic-anyone care to test?
 

Evil4Zerggin

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Well, I didn't want to include any non-generic sources other than UNIs, which is what's being discussed here. I mean there's also various government types, Curia Controller, and Unify Islam but not everyone is going to be Catholic, Orthodox, want Bureaucratic Despotism, or have the Muslim DLC, and my intention was simply to address the question of whether -stab on a UNI is good or not.
 

Mann42

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You forgot Orthodox religion for another -10%. Byzantium and generic orthodox countries both get -10 stab. Imperial integrity is another -10%, and curia controller is -5%. It's definitely doable, albeit a bit off-topic-anyone care to test?
It would work. Stability cost can be reduced to 10 Admin Points through modifiers. But even at -90% modifiers, it's still 60 to get to stab 2 and 110 to get to stab 3.
 

Incompetent

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Lots of UNIs have -stab cost, so I'm wondering: if you stacked Artist advisor (-10% stab cost), Fine Arts Academy (-5%), Church Attendance Duty (-25%), Trading in Wine (-25%), and one of the -10% UNIs you could get a -75% modifier to stability cost. Pass a few appropriate acts and it will cost almost nothing. Would you then be able to go on an endgame trucebreaker spree?

Yes, but only if you kept Overextension in check, which may defeat the purpose of your truce-breaking.
 

balmung60

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With respect to Nepal vs Brandenburg, I'd rather have Nepal's ideas. Anyone can beat enemy stacks, but the only other nation that gets to siege faster is the Netherlands, and they're stuck with a pretty crappy government (lifetime terms for republics = 1/1/4 (in varying combinations) ruler stats forever unless I'm missing something).
 

Gnomi

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^ Dutch republic gets random stats rulers. IMO, it is the best form of republic for those without +rep tradition NIs.....

Promising countries that are not mentioned so far....

Japan -- military focused, but also with legitimacy, prestige and -2 revolt risk. Much more well-rounded than Prussia for sure (though they do have one useless NI).

Punjab -- better version of Swiss, really.

Songhai -- trade + land army, pretty strong in both.

Tibet -- very well rounded, too bad about the end bonus.

I think they gave non-European better NIs in general -- a shame that AI never gets to pick up NIs.
 

Rabid

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With respect to Nepal vs Brandenburg, I'd rather have Nepal's ideas. Anyone can beat enemy stacks, but the only other nation that gets to siege faster is the Netherlands, and they're stuck with a pretty crappy government (lifetime terms for republics = 1/1/4 (in varying combinations) ruler stats forever unless I'm missing something).
Yeah +1 siege is fantastic and very underrated in general.

As for best overall ideas I'd probably go for Novgorod (aside from the insane republican tradition the other bonuses range from minor-but-useful to just plain good) with Sweden, Nepal, Japan and Brandenburg as runners up (not that military bonuses are inherently better than others but the sheer usefulness of each military bonus seems to be a lot more than most other bonuses such as +tax or prod income etc). I think it's pretty silly to look at NIs in a vacuum though, religion and government bonuses are also important; the eastern religions have much weaker bonuses in general for example.
 

Novacat

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Timurids - They were very strong before the patch and even stronger now that it is harder to get and keep 100 prestige. They start off with -25% Core Creation cost and +10% Army Morale Recovery, get -2% Prestige Decay and +1 Prestige for making 100 prestige easy, +50% Religious unity means that religious NI is not even necessary, +20% Cavalry, -10% Land Attrition and +5% Discipline gives them better armies than most hordes, and finally you have war exhaustion cost reduction and stability cost reduction which reduces consumption of MP. Of course, while the NI may not be the best in absolute terms, it must be taken into account that they get the Steppe Horde government which gives +50% Manpower and +50% Land Force Limit, which allows them to zerg as well as the Russians, as well as easy Shiite religion for +35% Morale which matches the Prussians in Morale.

Ming - -10% Idea Cost, +15% Defensiveness, +10% To all three income types (Production, tax, trade), -10% Stab cost, +5% Discipline, +30% Bad Relations Decay, and to top it off, +100% Manpower. Admittingly, the bonuses it has are not very large for the most part, but they are all useful.
 

anomalacaris

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Yeah +1 siege is fantastic and very underrated in general.

As for best overall ideas I'd probably go for Novgorod (aside from the insane republican tradition the other bonuses range from minor-but-useful to just plain good) with Sweden, Nepal, Japan and Brandenburg as runners up (not that military bonuses are inherently better than others but the sheer usefulness of each military bonus seems to be a lot more than most other bonuses such as +tax or prod income etc). I think it's pretty silly to look at NIs in a vacuum though, religion and government bonuses are also important; the eastern religions have much weaker bonuses in general for example.

I would disagree with +1 siege, by the time I get it I am mostly carpet sieging anyways. If you can beat enemy with 3 few unit so you can get one more siege with them, it's better than +1 siege already. I would certainly rate it lower than say +1 maneuver.
As Nepal what I really really want is a missionary strength bonus. All those muslim land... Aarrhh.
 

Swedish Steel!

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Has anyone played with a nation that gives yearly papal influence? That sounds like the weakest possible bonus.

That's what I thought too when I just read it. But when you play with it, specifically Spain, let's say you have 4 cardinals and you are the papal controller. This gives you a total of:

Stability Cost Modifier: -5%
Diplomats: +1
Yearly Prestige: +1.00
Possible Advisors: +2
Yearly Papal Influence: +2.00
Leaders without Upkeep: +1
Yearly Prestige: +0.8
Yearly Legitimacy: +2
Technology Cost Modifier: -4.0%

It also excludes someone else from getting those bonuses. Pretty nice to have I'd say.
 

Zardnaar

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That's what I thought too when I just read it. But when you play with it, specifically Spain, let's say you have 4 cardinals and you are the papal controller. This gives you a total of:

Stability Cost Modifier: -5%
Diplomats: +1
Yearly Prestige: +1.00
Possible Advisors: +2
Yearly Papal Influence: +2.00
Leaders without Upkeep: +1
Yearly Prestige: +0.8
Yearly Legitimacy: +2
Technology Cost Modifier: -4.0%

It also excludes someone else from getting those bonuses. Pretty nice to have I'd say.

Almost worth an entire tech tree. One can live without it though.
 

Peter Ebbesen

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I don't think the Russian NI is good, except that Russia has it, and it's perfectly suited to exploit Russia's abilities. Anyone else, and it's okay, but not huge. After all, 400k manpower in the pool doesn't do you a lot of good.
And Russia is, as you say, perfectly suited to take advantage of it. In my Russia expansion test game I'm up to something like 700k manpower pool right now and nearly 10k gain/month, and I could still use more. The last war saw me dip as low as 320k, which is as worrying to me now as dipping to 45k was back when I had a manpower pool of 100k.

Contrary to your assertion that it is okay but not huge for anyone else, I would argue that 100% manpower is great for any minor wanting to become a major without relying on mercenaries and for any major wanting to expand by force. (And, of course, in MP play any player would prefer that bonus to just about anything else that his country is granted, unless he is playing a dedicated moneybags/piggybank country.)

Having a huge manpower pool compared to the type of wars you are facing allows you to frequently assault fortresses immediately without a breech rather than having to wait for sieges to do the dirty work resulting in wars of a shorter duration overall and, in some cases, even less bloody wars because the huge losses in assaults - and assaults will occasionally go spectacularly wrong when you assault without a breech, even at 20:1 odds which is my baseline for assaulting - added to the overstacking attrition for the duration of a short war are not necessarily less than the attrition over time to besieging forces in a long war.

Once you reach the point where you can safely run one or two 60k or 100k armies through even highly defensive territory with much lower support limits (and/or with defensive or divine ideas), assaulting fortresses one by one and only taking brief breaks to recover morale for every three or four provinces an army has taken, warfare takes on a very different nature from the siege game that is otherwise predominant. And +100% manpower makes that situation a heck of a lot easier to reach regardless of country. :)
 

trojan1234

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I want to mention Korea, one of my favorites.

Korea is nice in terms of monach powers. -5% tech cost #1, -10% idea cost #6, and #2 stab cost -10%.
#4 heavy ship combat +5% is very rare bonus, the 3rd in the world. Only England and Spain have +10%.

Others are on par. Economy is boosted by tradition domestic trade power +25%, build cost -20%, #3 production +10%, #7 tax +10%.
Military is boosted by #4 heavy ship combat +5%, #5 manpower 10%, ambition infantry combat +10%.

MPs, economy, and military means conquest game :)
 

NapoleonI

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I think Milan has very strong ideas:
http://eu4wiki.com/Milan

What makes them so strong is that you get the best one first; -10 cost to all Ideas.
A bit later you get reductions to technology cost and stability cost.

In other words; you will be swimming in monarch points.

There are a few nations with similar ideas, but that are much weaker since you will have to wait a lot longer for the good ones.
 

Novacat

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There are a few nations with similar ideas, but that are much weaker since you will have to wait a lot longer for the good ones.

Ming's is flat out better. Starts with -10% idea cost and gets better bonuses all-round.
 

unmerged(195685)

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Lots of good discussion going on here, but you know what could really help? Some metrics! These shouldnt act as an end-all answer as they don't take adequately into account synergies between ideas, and certain ideas fall far enough out of the standard spectrum that comparing them to other ideas isn't 100% accurate, but it does give a good overall feel of some of the top NIs. So, without further ado-

-Ideas scaled from -1 (for outright bad ideas) to +3 (for good unique ideas/very over budget non-unique ideas)
-Generic average ideas worth 0, more if over budget (how much more compared to other over budget ideas of that type from different countries)
-Additional advisors/leader bonuses all +1
-Ex. Republican tradition worth +3 as a strong unique idea, trade steering worth -1
+1 for good synergy in ideas

So...let's look at Some countries!

Novgorod-6
Republican tradition is obviously the main benefit here. Defensive bonus is an average gain, but Novgorod gets a somewhat improved rate (with 20% considered normal). Full point of naval tradition is also over budget. Merchant means an extra free point. No penalties, as I actually like light ship costs. No bad NIs, but once again aside from republican tradition few outstanding ones.

Brandenburg-8
33% army morale is worth 2, as it's an average benefit at 10% but obviously way over base here. Goose step/Cantons are worth 2 and 1, once again since they're nicely over the going rate. The discipline bonus is as high as it gets, so that's worth 3. Covert relations impact is a trash idea, however, so that's a penalty. Finally, a synergistic bonus due to the overall high focus on combat.

Russia-9
+1 for 50% forcelimits-usually a weak NI, 50% is still a large benefit. +2 for Opprichina as Infantry cost is a bit weak, but once again a huge bonus and an additional benefit besides. +1 for free colonist. +1 for Cadet corp, as 5% tech reduction is the going rate. Finally, +3 for National manpower as 100% is way above the going rate of 25%, and the highest available. Finally, a +1 for synergy.

Nepal-6
+1 for 10% discipline. +2 for Royal Kumari. +1 for Leader siege. Arguable +1 for manpower recovery, as 20% is over rate. Finally, another +1 for synergy.

Ragusa-5
+2 towards both traditions, as they are nicely over budget. +1 for diplomat. -1 For reduced RR, as that's a somewhat trashy idea. +1 for synergy.

Najd-5
+1 for over budget conversion, and another 1 for leader maneuver. -1 for reduced stab cost, generally considered mediocre. +2 for enemy attrition, as it's a good unique idea but not on par with republican tradition. +1 for extra missionary. +1 for (conversion) synergy.

Switzerland-2
-1 for stability, and another -1 for the trash reducing war exhaustion. +2 for religious unity. +1 for fort defense. +1 for extra discipline.

Punjab-6
+2 for religious unity. +1 for extra production efficiency. -1 for stab costs. +1 for extra discipline. +3 for 50% morale (that's a lotta morale!)

Ming-5
-1 for 10% provincial trade power, as that's kind of trash. +2 for 10% ideas (one for over budget, two for being a tradition so maximum benefit). -1 for stab costs. +3 for manpower. +2 (arguable +3) for better relations.

Austria-7
+2 for better relations. +2 for diplomatic reputation bonus, above average but +2 diplo being sort of mediocre. +1 for edict as it's a two in one. +1 for diplomatic relations bonus, as an uncommon but good idea. +1 for synergy.

Ottomans-7
+1 for good rate tradition, +2 for reduced coring costs. +3 for Ottoman tolerance as it's a huge 2 for 1. +1 for Ghazi. -1 for reduced war exhaustion. +1 for above rate manpower recovery.

And for reference...

Generic ideas-MINUS 7
-1 for stab cost. -1 for poor tax gain. -1 for poor merc reduction. -1 for poor trade power. -1 for poor manpower. -1 for trade steering. -1 for poor production efficiency. Man, those generic ideas suck.
 

calvinhobbeslik

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I like personally tuscany http://eu4wiki.com/Tuscany

The first one is very nice with a reduction of -5% to technology and -5% to idea. Dont forget that they also start with 2 universities.
After that reduced mercenary, reduce interest (meh), +1 prestige, +15% to trade efficiency, +10% productivity, +25 manpower and +10% discipline.
counts for

In EU4, only one university counts for the tech cost reduction.