What is something you find VERY annoying in hoi4?

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cursorhiker

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Specific naval details:
1) heavy cruisers being capital ships. This has been a running problem (was the same in HOI3) and completely cripples the Japanese starting fleet as they need to build massive numbers of screens to cover their large number of heavy cruisers.
2) range not being a factor in naval battles. This is just completely baffling. It's like removing terrain penalties and bonuses from land combat.
3) massive fleets of capital ships can be parked in a relatively small port with little concern.
4) Carriers have no spotting value and despite having dozens of aircraft aboard rely on cruisers with scout planes to find the enemy
Air details
1) it's far too easy to build a high level airbase.
2) high level airbases on tiny islands in the Pacific greatly reduce the effectiveness of carriers
3) plane production numbers are way too high in the beginning and far too low by the end
4) air zones in general
 
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I guess I'll throw my hat into this ring:

1. Late-game lag. I feel that a key flaw of HOI4 is the fact that unless you've fully conquered one or two majors by 1941, the game really slows down. Paradox has done a decent job of optimizing the game in recent updates, but for me at least, the game has run slower ever since La Resistance came out. The fact that the game now strongly encourages puppeting over flat-out conquest may be more realistic, but being able to wipe the entire British Empire off the map by 1940 as Germany did wonders for the frame rate. Lag problems are the reason why I refuse to play the game without setting the United Kingdom to historical focuses first - the decolonization tree really slows the game down by adding a whole bunch of relatively useless tags to the game. The devs could probably mitigate the performance problems somewhat by putting restrictions on "irrelevant" countries like El Salvador that never do anything besides build up troops they don't ever use.

2. Everything related to navies in this game. This is partly on me, but HOI4 doesn't really give clear instructions on how navies work. I get frustrated trying to divide my fleets and end up accidentally making a ton of reserve task forces that I don't know how to access and I'm not sure if they even participate in naval battles or whatever. For these reasons, the only times I ever use my navies is to provide convoy escort for my naval invasions.

3. UI. Related to 2. is the fact that the game in general doesn't really tell you what a lot of important things do. For example, I had no idea how important combat width was before people on Discord told me.

4. AI has no "sanity checks" before declaring war. It's 1946, and my French Empire is finally starting to break the stalemate with Germany, For the last 4 years, I've fought alongside the Allies (though never joining their faction) against the Axis. I'm about to take Berlin and suddenly, Communist China, a member of the Allies, decides it would be a good time to declare war on me, thus bringing me into conflict with the US, the UK, and about half of the world. Hours of gameplay shot just because the AI doesn't know when not to start a fight. I would have gladly given them Guangzhouwan if it meant not provoking a war with the Allies, but no warning was given at all. I've had other games where I ally Italy and they decide to turn a regional conflict I was on the cusp of winning into World War II where none of us has any means of reaching the United Kingdom, let alone beating them. Very frustrating.

5. No peace without total conquest. This ties into point 4. I would have gladly ceded Guangzhouwan to the Allies if it meant going back to a state of cooperation with them against the Axis (and it's not like I could afford to garrison thousands of miles' worth of coastline across Europe and Africa to stop the Allies anyway). In LaR games as Italy, I've declared war on Yugoslavia and taken both them and France, but I'm still at war with Czechoslovakia, even though there's literally no way we can reach each other. Why isn't there any way we can white peace each other? Or take one of the many games back in Man the Guns where Germany would take over all of Europe but have no way of reaching the United States. Realistically (assuming an Axis victory is realistic) the United States would probably sue for a ceasefire.

6. Bad focus trees. Specifically, the Together for Victory focus trees are neglectful of history and tend to nerf countries rather than help them. In Canada's focus tree, you have to choose between getting manpower or getting industry, which is rough for a country that is already in a bad situation. Additionally, you have to wait for world tension to reach a certain threshold or else you are locked out of half (the good half, I might add) of your focus tree. You also can't modify your manpower law without going through focuses relatively deep down said "good part" of the focus tree.

The main problems with South Africa and India's focus trees are that they woefully neglect or oversimplify history. As fascist South Africa, you can basically end apartheid by "Expanding the Cape Corps." Absolutely nonsensical. Being able to go communist as South Africa makes no sense either. Meanwhile, India totally ignores the India-Pakistan conflict outside of the United Kingdom's decolonization tree, and Muhammad Ali Jinnah and Jawaharlal Nehru, arguably the two most important figures in modern Indian/Pakistani history, are not represented in the game at all.

The United States' focus tree is more recent but has its fair share of problems as well. The focus tree makes a rather large creative liberties that seem to reinforce modern and inaccurate stereotypes about American political parties rather than accurately representing the Republicans and Democrats. For example, in HOI4, electing moderate Republican Alf Landon (a major stretch, I should add) is a stepping stone to creating a neo-Confederate apartheid fascist dictatorship. ?!?!? Similarly, as Roosevelt, you can peacefully transition the country into a communist state without penalty. Guess Joseph McCarthy was right after all?

7. Development time. This is the least fair of my complaints, but no one likes waiting a year or more for new content, especially if it's just glitches that need to be fixed. I wish more people were working on this game.

That's the most pressing things I find annoying about HOI4. I want to stress that I like this game and appreciate the work the devs have done. Every successive expansion makes the game significantly better and I'm always excited to hear updates from the team on what's coming next. However, to pretend that the game has no problems at all would be dishonest.
 
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No doubt about it ... Battle Plans. I love having that feature, but I just wish it worked better. I am too old to micromanage large battles by controlling 150 or more divisions individually. I wish it was smarter and "remembered" large scale battle objectives better. It's hard to manage when the battle is one huge mass.
 
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1. How the battle planner shows this neat arrow on the map that looks like the direction of attack, but in reality the AI is just going to attack on a broad front and attempt to take every province on the way, diluting the forces you gave the AI to make the attack with.
2. Air zones in general, but specifically how planes can move three air zones ahead, but ignore all the enemy aircraft in the two zones they passed through to get there.
3. Lack of range in naval combat. That carrier and its screens should not be anywhere near the surface fight, unless trapped in by land masses.
4. Carrier planes just do not work right. Carrier fleets should be looking for fleets to engage and then engage them with aircraft only. This is so commonsense, it is hard to see how it gets turned upside down so the carrier fleet is actually in the surface combat screen and the planes do next to nothing.
5. Combat width and how units in combat cannot fight as a cohesive whole. Instead we have one or two random divisions attacking one random defending division, ignoring all the other units in the fight.
6. More and better unit icons.
7. Constant trade warnings. Some of that stuff needs automation.
8. The lack of need for AT, AA, artillery, and general support units for combat divisions. Org walls working so well for rich countries is just wrong. There would not be 60 MILS making fighters in the early game if divisions actually had to be properly outfitted to survive combat.
9. Supply. It seems designed for the early German years, as they push out. When the allies push in, the supply system falls apart, because no one can build up infrastructure or keep their annoying allies out of the supply zones. Many other places in the world, it is hit or miss at best.
10. Terrain identification. The map should make it instantly clear if a river is an issue, or if a specific tile is hills, desert, or even mountains. In to many places you need to manually double check it your self.
11. Shuffling of troops.
12. AI moving troops so carelessly by convoy and without escort. Troop convoys should be heavily escorted.
13. German AI not making armoured divisions.
14. AI not making escorts for convoys or enough screens for its capitals.
15. AI not able to respond to losing all its patrol fleets and then its strike fleets are ported for rest of the game.
16. The inevitable division spam. Germany barely had over 300 divisions at its height and many of those were not full strength. Division spam should be fixed, possibly by making org walls ineffective and making properly equipped divisions not a flavor thing, but a necessity through combat results.
 
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i find the whole game to be one annoyance after another, but i still somehow found a way to play nearly 6k hours of it. Every expansion has hurt me in some way, WtT it was the reworked army system (oh god it was bad), MtG it was submarines being literal gods that kill battleships (along with the whole naval system as a whole) and carriers being a waste of time despite being the most important ship of the war, and now with LaR it is 2 bugs that the DEVS HAVE YET TO FIX 2 MONTHS AFTER RELEASE AND AFTER 2 SEPERATE BUG FIX UPDATES! 1. The soviet-german tank treaty is bugged where the 100% armor bonus STACKS with the 2.0 ahead of time bonus instead of being seperate, and 2, when adding factories (or...anything) to a state that is already place in the construction queue RESETS its position to go to the very bottom of the queue for no fucking reason, and it cant be changed. neither of these are problems before 1.9, and i reverted my game to older versions and they dont happen at all. I love to pre-plan my factories in the construction queue so that i leave it alone for like 4 years and occasionally switch orders or add factories after conc. industry. But...now i fucking cant with 1.9. Paradox finds way to fuck up the game with every new expansion.
 
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The regression from a semi-realistic OOB system in HOI3 to the arbitrary non-sense we have now.

The continual slide away from a WW2 grand-strategy war-game into alt-history fantasy. Minor nations are far more influential than in reality. Nations can't actually just "build up" a civilian and military industry in a couple years and would need to purchase and import most weaponry, especially tanks, aircraft and ships. On the other hand, the fact that you need to "build up" industry at all as a Major power is absurd. For the most part industry already existed and wasn't expanded 5 times over during the course of the war, at best industry would lay dormant and unused (ex: the USA and the Great Depression).

The MTG American Communist and Fascist paths. They demonstrate a clear bias in Paradox's political beliefs. The rise of Communism is only opposed by Fascists, but the rise of Fascism is opposed by everyone... Yeah no. Americans and most reasonable people were and are very much opposed to both. Keep your leftist revisionism to yourself.

The Army/Air/Navy experience system. No, you don't need to conduct a Naval exercise or fight a battle to figure out how to add an AA mount to a ship. No, you don't need to fly missions in order to add more guns to a plane. No, you don't need to fight battles or have infantry do push-ups to upgrade a tank. Completely stupid and arbitrary mechanic.

The Doctrine systems regressing from HOI3 into more arbitrary non-sense. A nation can develop tactics and strategies however they see fit.

The peace conferences are a complete mess. "Player Led Peace Conferences" being by far one of the most popular mods to apply a band-aid to fix this speaks volumes. Instead of fixing it, we get 5 expansions with "cOol nEw fOcuS tReEs".

Most of the economic system. Free trade locking you out of your own resources even if no one buys them. Resources being tied to infrastructure. Civilian industry requiring no resources and the complete lack of any monetary system. The removal of the theoretical/practical system from HOI3. Dispersed/Concentrated industry tech tree, especially with one (and not the historical one) being blatantly superior in most scenarios.

Focus trees giving free stuff, and especially permanent buffs.
 
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A general lack of realism and historicity. In singleplayer in particular I don't really feel like I'm playing a WW2 game, so much as I'm playing a generic sandbox game with some "flavours" of WW2 thrown in. I feel like previous titles in the series captured the immersion better, though by no means perfectly there either, though mods and multiplayer helped a lot with that (and do help to some extent in HoI4).
 
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What? It's obvious the key.to Axis winning the war was putting 30 divisions in Ethiopia...
 
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You can't choose where your Air Base is built when you build it. Makes no sense. I've even seen it put it into enemy occupied territory before. A lot of time it puts it right on the frontline or right behind it which means you lose it if you lose any ground.
 
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AI resource management.

1.9 with all DLC except LR, using Expert AI mod:

AI USA sometimes doesn't import resources even when they have convoys, civs, safe seas, and trading partners. Once the UK actually blocked all sea zones around them so they couldn't import anything.

In older versions, I remember:

AI Allies dont build refineries when out of fuel or rubber. Or the AI wont build enough convoys.
 

MobiusTwo

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The regression from a semi-realistic OOB system in HOI3 to the arbitrary non-sense we have now.

The continual slide away from a WW2 grand-strategy war-game into alt-history fantasy. Minor nations are far more influential than in reality. Nations can't actually just "build up" a civilian and military industry in a couple years and would need to purchase and import most weaponry, especially tanks, aircraft and ships. On the other hand, the fact that you need to "build up" industry at all as a Major power is absurd. For the most part industry already existed and wasn't expanded 5 times over during the course of the war, at best industry would lay dormant and unused (ex: the USA and the Great Depression).

The MTG American Communist and Fascist paths. They demonstrate a clear bias in Paradox's political beliefs. The rise of Communism is only opposed by Fascists, but the rise of Fascism is opposed by everyone... Yeah no. Americans and most reasonable people were and are very much opposed to both. Keep your leftist revisionism to yourself.

The Army/Air/Navy experience system. No, you don't need to conduct a Naval exercise or fight a battle to figure out how to add an AA mount to a ship. No, you don't need to fly missions in order to add more guns to a plane. No, you don't need to fight battles or have infantry do push-ups to upgrade a tank. Completely stupid and arbitrary mechanic.

The Doctrine systems regressing from HOI3 into more arbitrary non-sense. A nation can develop tactics and strategies however they see fit.

The peace conferences are a complete mess. "Player Led Peace Conferences" being by far one of the most popular mods to apply a band-aid to fix this speaks volumes. Instead of fixing it, we get 5 expansions with "cOol nEw fOcuS tReEs".

Most of the economic system. Free trade locking you out of your own resources even if no one buys them. Resources being tied to infrastructure. Civilian industry requiring no resources and the complete lack of any monetary system. The removal of the theoretical/practical system from HOI3. Dispersed/Concentrated industry tech tree, especially with one (and not the historical one) being blatantly superior in most scenarios.

Focus trees giving free stuff, and especially permanent buffs.

I'm sorry, but I disagree with some aspects of your post. Obviously, you are allowed to have your opinions since this is a thread where people post what they find annoying, but I feel that if some of your complaints were implemented, it would make the game less fun.

Specifically, I have a problem with your statement that minors in this game are too strong. Realistically, you are 100% correct, but if they didn't give every nation a chance to succeed in this game, then what would be the point of playing as any country that isn't the USA, the UK, Germany or the Soviet Union? You might as well make the seven starting majors plus China the only playable countries, and straight up cut South America and sub-Saharan Africa off the map.

You complain about "alt-history fantasy," and I'm not going to argue that a lot of the alt-history in this game really stretches historical realities, but if the devs are being honest about player statistics, these branches of focus trees are far more popular with the playerbase than the historical focuses. They are simply giving us what we want.
Granted, a lot of the alt-history could stand to be a lot better. You may have seen in my post in this thread that I complained that as the US, you can go from Alf Landon to neo-Confederate dictatorship in a matter of months, which is absurd. Similarly, the Japanese communist path is incredibly contrived and truly an "unthinkable option," as that focus branch is titled - development time would have been better spent expanding the fascist and monarchist paths, which are the only semi-plausible Japanese paths.

I don't think that the MTG "Second Civil War" reflects Paradox's political bias more than it reflects mere bad design. The fact that you can have a second civil war at all feels very forced to me. The only way that Roosevelt (I'm not even going to go into Alf Landon since he had no chance of winning the 1936 election) might have encountered some sort of organized resistance would be if he insisted on carrying out his "court packing" plan or some other "realistic" radical measures, which I think it would have been cool if the devs tried to implement. Certainly it would be more interesting than the House and Senate mechanics we got, which can be completely ignored.
As far as political biases go, I think this game is pretty fair. Certainly it doesn't portray left-wing figures such as Stalin in a positive light. And in the "Oppose Hitler" path, apparently only the very conservative royalists are the only ones brave enough to restore Germany to its pre-fascist form.

Besides that, I never played HOI3 and can't give opinions on it, but the rest of your complaints are mostly spot-on (I don't necessarily mind permanent buffs from focus trees), except for the part where you dismiss focus trees as DLC content. New focus trees are a part of the game I look forward to a ton. Would you really not care if every country got a generic focus tree? Wouldn't that be boring?
 
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Bearjuden

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It's not consequential on the scale that y'all are describing, because most of your complaints seem to be things that actually affect how the game progresses, but eh. These things are still bothersome to my OCD ass:

1) the fact that historical division names are not numerically ordered. So the unnamed divisions might look like

1. Infantry Division
2. Infantry Division
3. Infantry Division
4. Infantry Division

but the historical ones might go

1. Infantry Division Name
3. Infantry Division Name
6. Infantry Division Name
4. Infantry Division Name

This drives me nuts. I want to use historical names. But I also like having my armies be in order, so that my "First Army" is divisions 1-12 or 1-18 or whatever size I happen to use, and the "Second Army" picks up at 13-24 or 19-36 or what have you. Which is hard to do when I have no idea when division number 15 will pop out.

2) our inability to reorder national spirits. I like having my national spirits ordered roughly in order of how important they are to the nation, so something extremely important (political stuff, mostly) is the first, leftmost spirit, followed by increasingly less "core" spirits. Alas that I have to stare at misordered spirits or do my foci in a typically wildly inoptimal fashion.

Only thing that really matters that I don't see either brought up here (such as pointless mountaineers, though I'll go to bat for Marines, naval penalties are no joke) or that is just generally known in the forum (terrible peace conference AI, horrible air wing deployment menu, etc) is inability to flex my industrial power on my allies' territory as a democracy. Democracies get shafted in terms of abilities compared to everyone else who can justify earlier, use better laws faster, puppet easier, etc but if they hav eone thing going for them it's that they should be able to work as a team. This doesn't really balance the scales but jeez, it'd be something if the US could put its vast might to work building up Britain, and while it might not be truly historical it's at least in theme.

It also bothers the crap out of me that a democratic or unaligned nation with 100% war support can't lend-lease or send volunteers or anything. I personally think that world tension should not be the directly deciding factor of those things (it would still contribute, since high world tension increases war support), but if your nation is super ready to go to war and take an active stance in international politics then why are you arbitrarily not allowed to do anything?

For one that's not the AI, that there is no default ship class name

Oh, nice, seconded. Not that it isn't hard to say "eh, carriers are...big cities in my country, sure, why not" but it'd be nice to have the option of a default name.
 
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unrealcraft

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Specifically, I have a problem with your statement that minors in this game are too strong. Realistically, you are 100% correct, but if they didn't give every nation a chance to succeed in this game, then what would be the point of playing as any country that isn't the USA, the UK, Germany or the Soviet Union? You might as well make the seven starting majors plus China the only playable countries, and straight up cut South America and sub-Saharan Africa off the map.

I stand by my point. This is supposed to be a grand-strategy war-game, not fantasy. As a Minor, having a real effect on the outcome war is the best they should hope for (and should be an impressive feat), not being able to win it by themselves.

You complain about "alt-history fantasy," and I'm not going to argue that a lot of the alt-history in this game really stretches historical realities, but if the devs are being honest about player statistics, these branches of focus trees are far more popular with the playerbase than the historical focuses. They are simply giving us what we want.

What percentage of the actual playerbase voted in favor of fantasy focuses? I'd be curious to see the real numbers. Regardless, I'm not opposed to them being included, I'm opposed to them being added before them perfecting the combat and economic systems. My point was more towards the unrealistic power of Minor nations.

I don't think that the MTG "Second Civil War" reflects Paradox's political bias more than it reflects mere bad design. The fact that you can have a second civil war at all feels very forced to me. The only way that Roosevelt (I'm not even going to go into Alf Landon since he had no chance of winning the 1936 election) might have encountered some sort of organized resistance would be if he insisted on carrying out his "court packing" plan or some other "realistic" radical measures, which I think it would have been cool if the devs tried to implement. Certainly it would be more interesting than the House and Senate mechanics we got, which can be completely ignored.
As far as political biases go, I think this game is pretty fair. Certainly it doesn't portray left-wing figures such as Stalin in a positive light. And in the "Oppose Hitler" path, apparently only the very conservative royalists are the only ones brave enough to restore Germany to its pre-fascist form.

Modern leftists had to abandon the defense of the Soviets and their atrocities once they became well known to the world, their lack of that isn't an indication of political balance. Portraying a Communist revolution as supported by the general populace (false) and only opposed by Fascists (false) are both in line with modern dogma. A civil war to put either party in power is realistic as during that timeframe both parties were very unpopular.

IRT Germany, you only see the Conservatives and Royalists pushing for a return to the German Empire because they're the only ones who wanted that. The Communists wanted a revolution. The Liberals wanted a Democracy.

Would you really not care if every country got a generic focus tree? Wouldn't that be boring?

As above, I'd really rather they fix and perfect the combat and economic systems first.
 
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MR2

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WADR. If doing the same thing over and over again while expecting a different result one of the definitions of insanity - then fine, knock yourselves out. I have no problem with that. But don't you (honestly) think that changing history (even a little bit) is just a wee bit fantastical? Ergo it IS alt-history. Attacking Pearl Harbor before/after Dec. 7, 1941 IS alt-history. You can quibble all you want - but if you're honest, you know I'm correct.
 

MobiusTwo

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I stand by my point. This is supposed to be a grand-strategy war-game, not fantasy. As a Minor, having a real effect on the outcome war is the best they should hope for (and should be an impressive feat), not being able to win it by themselves.

What percentage of the actual playerbase voted in favor of fantasy focuses? I'd be curious to see the real numbers. Regardless, I'm not opposed to them being included, I'm opposed to them being added before them perfecting the combat and economic systems. My point was more towards the unrealistic power of Minor nations.

Modern leftists had to abandon the defense of the Soviets and their atrocities once they became well known to the world, their lack of that isn't an indication of political balance. Portraying a Communist revolution as supported by the general populace (false) and only opposed by Fascists (false) are both in line with modern dogma. A civil war to put either party in power is realistic as during that timeframe both parties were very unpopular.

IRT Germany, you only see the Conservatives and Royalists pushing for a return to the German Empire because they're the only ones who wanted that. The Communists wanted a revolution. The Liberals wanted a Democracy.

As above, I'd really rather they fix and perfect the combat and economic systems first.

We'll have to agree to disagree on the minors. I might be okay with minors merely being able to have a real effect on the war, rather than winning it single-handedly, if it weren't for the fact that the game lags like crazy when you haven't taken out multiple majors by 1940. Besides that, the game isn't very rewarding if you don't have the most warscore in the peace deal. Your major power allies can easily puppet all the land surrounding you in the peace deal and carve up the Balkans in an idiotic way that would all but ensure a third World War. However, you already addressed this point in your initial post.

As far as playerbase statistics, you have these three posts that go into a bit of detail on how players like to play the game. They aren't as thorough as I would like them to be, but they're what we have and do indicate trends.

Okay, so I played a Communist USA game and when the South rose up to secede, they were Democratic (with a good mix of Non-Aligned and Fascist in there too). Wouldn't that seem to indicate communism being opposed pretty universally? My main problem is that figures such as Patton and MacArthur stayed loyal to my communist government. Totally out of character for them.
For Germany, you can get a liberal democracy or return to the Empire after overthrowing Hitler. I imagined that "Oppose Hitler" meant these elements were pooling their resources together to remove the fascists, with the royalists taking the initiative. I've never gotten the impression that the communists were invited to the party.
 
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