This never made sense to me. What is Org for naval units? It makes sense for ground divisions whose individual sub units lose cohesion, morale and organisation as they are impacted by combat. You could also see some part of Org could be ammunition and supplies, though there is a whole component of HOI3 to model supplies so maybe that should be excluded.
But Org for naval ships? A battleship is mostly undamaged and at zero org and no longer fights? How so?
Remember that Org gets dropped by enemy fire so the ammunition aspect can't cover it. The org of that BB was dropped by getting hit by enemy units. If a BB is damaged, then it should be losing strength points. And losing the ability to fight as it's crew are hurt or killed, it's gun turrets get knocked out, fires, etc, etc. That stuff can be only be partially fixed by damage control and the rest must be repaired in port/drydock. So this is serious physical damage not some temporary disfunction that will simply come back with resting from combat.
Org for naval units just doesn't make sense. I believe that you could have a division disorganised and fragmented without taking big casualties. Sub units can get lost, lose morale, misread orders, and so on. But not a warship, not in the same way. If a warship loses its command and control then it's also seriously damaged.
I think that this was just a lazy option of using the ground combat model for naval battles.
I'd like Paradox to drop it totally for the naval part of the game. Get someone to do some research on how naval engagements really played out, identify the key factors that created the results, then try to model that appropriately for a strategic game with a fresh naval combat system. I'm sure there are some genuine experts on the forums or books that might be able to help the design by suggesting typical battle outcomes.
As an amateur who knows only a little about WW2, I'd suggest taskforce layout, picket ships, doctrines, taskforce cruising speed and flank speed, commander skill, crew training, sea state and weather, as well as technical capabilities of the ship classes should all be modelled. And most crucial of all from what little I know, detection! Including naval intelligence.
Here is an example that would indicate if you've built a realistic combat simulation. Torpedoes were deadly to ships and therefore, fast torpedo boats were actually a real threat to even heavy ships. If torpedo boats could surprise or ambush the larger ships, their attack would be devastating even to heavy ships. Say for example, in coastal areas where there are great hiding places. Which as I understand it, is exactly how they were used. In HOI3, are such boats useful? I don't think so. Yet in real life they were. Similarly, a torpedo run by a group of destroyers could take out a heavy ship, if they had the opportunity. So its about surviving the gunfire and closing the range. I'd love to see this modelled in the naval game.
It would be great to see naval defenses able to hurt ships trying to attack that port. Minefields and heavy land based anti naval cannons could actually kill ships. So I would love to see that modelled rather than some abstract useless penalty like -9% to your invasion landing.
I don't ask for much do I?
But seriously, HOI4 would really take a step up if it modelled naval warfare with it's own combat system that dropped organisation.
Cheers,
Sword
But Org for naval ships? A battleship is mostly undamaged and at zero org and no longer fights? How so?
Remember that Org gets dropped by enemy fire so the ammunition aspect can't cover it. The org of that BB was dropped by getting hit by enemy units. If a BB is damaged, then it should be losing strength points. And losing the ability to fight as it's crew are hurt or killed, it's gun turrets get knocked out, fires, etc, etc. That stuff can be only be partially fixed by damage control and the rest must be repaired in port/drydock. So this is serious physical damage not some temporary disfunction that will simply come back with resting from combat.
Org for naval units just doesn't make sense. I believe that you could have a division disorganised and fragmented without taking big casualties. Sub units can get lost, lose morale, misread orders, and so on. But not a warship, not in the same way. If a warship loses its command and control then it's also seriously damaged.
I think that this was just a lazy option of using the ground combat model for naval battles.
I'd like Paradox to drop it totally for the naval part of the game. Get someone to do some research on how naval engagements really played out, identify the key factors that created the results, then try to model that appropriately for a strategic game with a fresh naval combat system. I'm sure there are some genuine experts on the forums or books that might be able to help the design by suggesting typical battle outcomes.
As an amateur who knows only a little about WW2, I'd suggest taskforce layout, picket ships, doctrines, taskforce cruising speed and flank speed, commander skill, crew training, sea state and weather, as well as technical capabilities of the ship classes should all be modelled. And most crucial of all from what little I know, detection! Including naval intelligence.
Here is an example that would indicate if you've built a realistic combat simulation. Torpedoes were deadly to ships and therefore, fast torpedo boats were actually a real threat to even heavy ships. If torpedo boats could surprise or ambush the larger ships, their attack would be devastating even to heavy ships. Say for example, in coastal areas where there are great hiding places. Which as I understand it, is exactly how they were used. In HOI3, are such boats useful? I don't think so. Yet in real life they were. Similarly, a torpedo run by a group of destroyers could take out a heavy ship, if they had the opportunity. So its about surviving the gunfire and closing the range. I'd love to see this modelled in the naval game.
It would be great to see naval defenses able to hurt ships trying to attack that port. Minefields and heavy land based anti naval cannons could actually kill ships. So I would love to see that modelled rather than some abstract useless penalty like -9% to your invasion landing.
I don't ask for much do I?
But seriously, HOI4 would really take a step up if it modelled naval warfare with it's own combat system that dropped organisation.Cheers,
Sword
