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shri

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I don't want to derail this thread as others have been, BUT:

Classic double negation tactics.


The statements of world leaders who were under duress or playing politics with bias and agendas, - the statements of the enemy no less - does not necessarily reflect the reality of events. The likes of Foreign Minister Taleyrand couldn't have had it more wrong.

Winston Churchill writing propaganda is good, Talleyrand writing facts is bad.. good going. England STRONK, Frogs (insert any other epithet- Krauts, Ivans, Dagos) Weak.
BTW- Just to inform, Talleyrand was regarded as the most versatile, skilled and influential diplomats of Europe in his time and his career spanned - Louis XVI, the Revolutionaries, Napoleon, Louis XVIII and Louis-Phillippe I.


And how is it "secret" if Churchill himself openly wrote about it in his own works?!

Writing about something that didn't workout, many years after losing power is called writing "memoirs" to appease one's constituency and not History.


Many tens of thousands of British died trying to help the USSR, even if they didn't actually die side by side on the eastern front. That large chip on your shoulder? Take it off.

Now, of-course the Cold War happened and the Russians are painted REDS/COMMIES etc (for your own info- i am not a big fan of Communism). That has resulted in them not getting acknowledgement for winning the War.
The Chip is actually on your own shoulder- as those percentage deals and other deals show that the British were only fighting to preserve their empire, the whole empire's edifice rested on the myth that - Britain itself was invincible and the superior, if that myth was busted the empire would go bust. This was the only reason why Britain fought-on despite all the "speeches" and it let its allies bleed themselves for their victory, only problem was the allies had become mature by now and didn't let the British hog the limelight and that is the main reason for the post-war bankruptcy and collapse of empire.


WWI had wiped out almost an entire generation

This is another myth propagated again and again and repeated by only the British Historians but not anybody else.
Britain lost about 1.8% of its population (how is this an entire generation?) in the Great War, against this-

Serbia lost 16%, Ottomans lost 13%, France and Germany both lost 4.3%, Greece/Bulgaria/Italy/Romania all lost over 3%. All of this excludes losses due to "Influenza" except Serbia where i think the "Typhus" losses are included.
Russia lost about 2% in the War and another 3% in the Civil War
and god only knows how much due to Stalin. (better make it Stalin only knows as the Commies are Godless).

Finally, Let's take the Generation at base =100, Males=50, Life Expectancy for European countries on the eve of the Great War was about 50-55 for the Western Europe and 45-50 for Eastern Europe.
Let's take it at 55. So, the productive male population is the age group of 18-45, is 25%, out of this the maximum of those 1.8% came, this means the productive Generation lost about 7.2% or so. 7/100 is certainly not a Generation.
Esp. considering that the Generation born after 1890 and before 1925 had something like 48% chance of survival for males in the erstwhile USSR. (this meant 52/100 died).


White Dominions were of limited use since they were often semi-independent, with control of their own forces needed to defend their own dominions. What was loaned was useful, sometimes decisive, and welcome, but usually not very sizeable in the scale of world war two.

Canada, contributed over a million troops and Australia just under a Million, South Africa gave 300000 and New Zealand about 250000; Canada in Europe and Anzacs mainly in North Africa & Italy and in the Pacific War. South Africa didn't contribute at that level but managed to help in North Africa, Air Force and Naval and also in East African Campaign, considering total British Contribution at less than 6 million, an addition of 2.6 million or 45% is huge numbers.
 
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Cardus

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@shri I don't want to derail this thread as others have been, BUT:

The statements of world leaders who were under duress or playing politics with bias and agendas, - the statements of the enemy no less - does not necessarily reflect the reality of events. The likes of Foreign Minister Taleyrand couldn't have had it more wrong. The British have always relied on allies - but they have also always assisted them where ever possible and had their own navies and/armies operating aggressively.

The following figures are based on accounts I have read and am attempting to recall. Other sources might give slightly different figures - and I am not perfect - I may not be able to remember it all properly. So apologies in advance for any mistakes.

Now, as I understand it...

White Dominions were of limited use since they were often semi-independent, with control of their own forces needed to defend their own dominions. What was loaned was useful, sometimes decisive, and welcome, but usually not very sizeable in the scale of world war two. A similar problem lay with the rest of the empire, with British forces being spread thin to garrison and (try to ) protect it. Perhaps most importantly of all, just twenty years before, WWI had wiped out almost an entire generation, and so large had the call up been that war production in Britain had been left without enough workforce, so that war production had been compromised. Britain was intent on this slaughter and shortfall not happening again. So it took measures to prevent it.

The Military Training Act of April 1939 required that all British men aged 20 and 21 - no other ages - who were fit and able, were required to take military training. Even so, when war broke out the process had barely begun and the British Army could still only muster about 900,000 men

Recognising the need for more, Parliament brought in the National Service Act. This made all able men between the ages of 18 and 41 liable for conscription; (still no one younger than 18 note), with a priority on single men being called up before married men. To prevent a repeat of WWI the call up would be done incrementally. Furthermore, 5 million men were kept in "Reserved Occupations", necessary to keep the war effort going and the country itself running effectively. To fill the gaps left by those going to armed forces, women worked in factories, or on the farms (the Land Army) and filled many military non-combat support roles in the Auxiliary Territorial Service.

The age group included in the call ups gradually became more inclusive until by 1942 all healthy and fit males between 18 and 51 years old and all healthy and fit single and childless females 20 to 30 years old were liable to be called up. Unfortunately it is very difficult to ascertain how many eligible combatants this actually was - since many of the relevant records from the national census were lost or/and destroyed. However, of an estimated population of around 47 - 48 million (not 50 million), the children numbered about 14 million. Take out the other exemptions from service - women who were married, or had children, or who were older than 30; males older than 51; those deemed unfit for service; the blind and mentally ill; the Clergy, those millions in "reserved occupations" - it quickly becomes apparent that well over half of the population would not have been eligible for service in the armed forces - although many did their part on the Home Front. Several million kept the wheels of war turning, volunteering to be ARPs, Special Constables, Fire-fighters or Home Guard. Just a little less than half a million women joined the military and 6.5 million more had filled the jobs left empty by men, doing the same jobs men had (this of course suggests that at least 6.5 million men did mobilise, but the figure could be misleading, as war time production was far more intensive than at peacetime).

I have been trying to find the actual number of males aged between 18 and 51 and single women aged between 20 and 30 eligible for service - but such a figure appears to be lost. I have figures for the late 19th Century and pre WW1 - but obviously these are of little use. But even then, before WWI had taken so many, the number of men aged 18- 51 had only been roughly around 10 million. By 1939, after as many as 800,000 to a million people had died in WWI, and a further 250,000 had been lost to the influenza pandemic of 1919, the eligible manpower could not have been greater than 9 million at the very most. All I know is that by the end of the war 3.5 million had served in the British army (peaking at a maximum strength of 2.5 million), while about 900,000 served in the Royal Navy and 1 million in the RAF (with a further 200,000 from the Dominions and other allies). Tens of thousands had served in intelligence or covert operations. About 50,000 in the Merchant Navy. 37,000 more were sent to mines instead of the Front. I estimate about 6 million served (?). This seemed to push Britain to it's limit.

Since Britain was all about giving it's all ( bankrupting itself to keep the war going is not something you do if you are "holding back") and since in 1945 the army no longer had enough manpower and had to merge units to keep divisions at effective fighting strength, I would suggest that Britain did not have much more eligible man(woman) power (that it could afford) to use. The Army would not have left it's divisions short by choice, which rather implies that there wasn't much left in the eligible manpower reserves by 1945 - or/and that it did not have the funds to raise more. Either way, it rather seems that Britain had given it's all in the conditions it was operating under.

Regarding the Soviet Union: taking into account that Britain was giving it's all, and that Churchill knew full well that his country did not have the strength to take on Stalin, those "secret percentage deals" can be seen as nothing more than the realistic acknowledgement of the strategic situation, with Churchill, lacking any military clout and fast losing political influence too, still trying to save eastern Europe from complete Soviet take over. Churchill was always the first to fear and suspect the Soviets and he did not make that accord lightly - but since Stalin was not about to just leave -that had already been made clear - and since Churchill could not force him to militarily, a political compromise - and the hope that Stalin would abide by it - was all he could do.

And how is it "secret" if Churchill himself openly wrote about it in his own works?!

Regarding giving supplies and helping the Soviet Union: The UK got more aid - but then the UK was a lot easier and safer to reach!("Safe", being a relative term of course - the Atlantic was no pleasure cruise). However, despite the high peril 1400 vessels were still used in Arctic Convoys to try to get through to the USSR to give them aid from the US and Britain -supplies, arms, armour, aircraft - much of which Britain itself needed rather badly itself. These convoys tied up German forces that could otherwise have been used against the USSR and that instead sunk British vessels. Of the British ships involved, 16 Royal navy ships and 85 Merchant vessels were lost. The RAF lost lives too: Over 8,000 aircraft were lost in action. Bomber Command suffered over 55,000 killed - from a total of about 125,000. That's roughly around a 40% mortality rate. They died bombing the factories that were making the parts that made the arms and the planes and the tanks - disrupting, delaying, damaging and even destroying the production of German materiel, much of which would have been sent to the eastern front.

Many tens of thousands of British died trying to help the USSR, even if they didn't actually die side by side on the eastern front. That large chip on your shoulder? Take it off.
This is a sensible post. I have done a similar research sometime ago and I was able to find some figures. Unfortunately I can't remeber where they are but the bottom line for the UK was that the men conscripted were actually more than possible (given several constraints as age, men not eligible for service, workers active in key industrial production, etc.). This thanks to the support given by some countries such as Canada, the USA, etc. that allowed the British to spare some men from "civilian" duty.

The bottom line for:
1) The USA was that the country achieved the optimal share of conscripts (1 more conscript would have meant 1 NEEDED worker less).
2) Germany was that the country didn't make an optimal/efficient use of its manpower (e.g. females didn't replace men in factories)
3) Canada was that the country had to employ more men than strictly required for civilian duties to support the British war effort (if i recall correctly the country formed only an handful number of divisions 4?)
4) Italy was that the country had an inefficient use of human resources because the industry lacked the required raw materials (in fact war mobilization was much higher in WWI than in WWII with the industry outproducing by far in 1918 what was produced in 1942).
...
 
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Otto of england

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To clarify Canada only fielded 5 full divisions overseas (2 brigades as well iirc, with a further division prepared to serve in the invasion of japan) because the government choose to only deploy volunteers. There was actually major controversy over conscription people and deploying them outside of Canada proper during the war. So it's not entirely correct to say Britain needing to be supported with Canadian industry is why Canada field so few full divisions overseas. It would be more accurate to say it's hard to get enough volunteers to maintain more than ~7 divisions overseas eith a population of ~15 million.
 

Cardus

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To clarify Canada only fielded 5 full divisions overseas (2 brigades as well iirc, with a further division prepared to serve in the invasion of japan) because the government choose to only deploy volunteers. There was actually major controversy over conscription people and deploying them outside of Canada proper during the war. So it's not entirely correct to say Britain needing to be supported with Canadian industry is why Canada field so few full divisions overseas. It would be more accurate to say it's hard to get enough volunteers to maintain more than ~7 divisions overseas eith a population of ~15 million.
When the industry works at the maximum capacity more conscripted means less production. If the war required more men from Canada than goods the conscription law could have been changed. This was not the case.
 

Mannstien

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Johan probably knew he'd be on the defensive from the start because he saw Trotsky and Alf Landon as leaders lol, So "Time to build the trucks, and da bombers, and da nukes oh and Frack Gotland" :D
 

Otto of england

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When the industry works at the maximum capacity more conscripted means less production. If the war required more men from Canada than goods the conscription law could have been changed. This was not the case.

Canada conscripted men, but the population did not want conscripts to be sent overseas. There were 2 conscripted home defence divisions in fact, but when attempts were made to deploy them the population wouldn't have it and the government had to listen.
 

Cardus

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Canada conscripted men, but the population did not want conscripts to be sent overseas. There were 2 conscripted home defence divisions in fact, but when attempts were made to deploy them the population wouldn't have it and the government had to listen.
There was no referendum on joining the WWII, the government didn't ask for the opinion of Canadians. The same happens with regards to conscription laws: the government rules.
 

amalric de g.

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Germany was that the country didn't make an optimal/efficient use of its manpower (e.g. females didn't replace men in factories)

15 Million women worked allready 1939 in Germany. 1 Million served in the Wehrmacht in non combatant roles. So nearly 50% of the adult womens served or worked during the war.
Thats alot more than UK and US put into factories or in the army.
About the other working guys we can´t talk, because forum rules.

So your statement is wrong.
 
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Cardus

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15 Million women worked allready 1939 in Germany. 1 Million served in the Wehrmacht in non combatant roles. So nearly 50% of the adult womens served or worked during the war.
Thats alot more than UK and US put into factories or in the army.
About the other working guys we can´t talk, because forum rules.

So your statement is wrong.
I was expecting this reaction...

On the eve of war 14.6 million German women were working, with 51% of women of working age (16–60 years old) in the workforce. Nearly six million were doing farm work, as Germany's agricultural economy was dominated by small family farms. 2.7 million worked in industry. When the German economy was mobilized for war it paradoxically led to a drop in female work participation, reaching a low of 41% before gradually climbing back to over 50% again. This still compares favorably with the UK and the USA, both playing catchup, with Britain achieving a participation rate of 41% of women of working age in 1944. However, in terms of women employed in war work, British and German female participation rates were nearly equal by 1944, with the United States still lagging
This tells you that:
1) In terms of industrialization pro capita Germany was behind the USA and England (women worked MAINLY at home and in the fields)
2) There was a drop in female work participation until when Germany had to scratch the barrel
 

Scutatus

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Classic double negation tactics.




Winston Churchill writing propaganda is good, Talleyrand writing facts is bad.. good going. England STRONK, Frogs (insert any other epithet- Krauts, Ivans, Dagos) Weak.
BTW- Just to inform, Talleyrand was regarded as the most versatile, skilled and influential diplomats of Europe in his time and his career spanned - Louis XVI, the Revolutionaries, Napoleon, Louis XVIII and Louis-Phillippe I.




Writing about something that didn't workout, many years after losing power is called writing "memoirs" to appease one's constituency and not History.




Now, of-course the Cold War happened and the Russians are painted REDS/COMMIES etc (for your own info- i am not a big fan of Communism). That has resulted in them not getting acknowledgement for winning the War.
The Chip is actually on your own shoulder- as those percentage deals and other deals show that the British were only fighting to preserve their empire, the whole empire's edifice rested on the myth that - Britain itself was invincible and the superior, if that myth was busted the empire would go bust. This was the only reason why Britain fought-on despite all the "speeches" and it let its allies bleed themselves for their victory, only problem was the allies had become mature by now and didn't let the British hog the limelight and that is the main reason for the post-war bankruptcy and collapse of empire.




This is another myth propagated again and again and repeated by only the British Historians but not anybody else.
Britain lost about 1.8% of its population (how is this an entire generation?) in the Great War, against this-

Serbia lost 16%, Ottomans lost 13%, France and Germany both lost 4.3%, Greece/Bulgaria/Italy/Romania all lost over 3%. All of this excludes losses due to "Influenza" except Serbia where i think the "Typhus" losses are included.
Russia lost about 2% in the War and another 3% in the Civil War
and god only knows how much due to Stalin. (better make it Stalin only knows as the Commies are Godless).

Finally, Let's take the Generation at base =100, Males=50, Life Expectancy for European countries on the eve of the Great War was about 50-55 for the Western Europe and 45-50 for Eastern Europe.
Let's take it at 55. So, the productive male population is the age group of 18-45, is 25%, out of this the maximum of those 1.8% came, this means the productive Generation lost about 7.2% or so. 7/100 is certainly not a Generation.
Esp. considering that the Generation born after 1890 and before 1925 had something like 48% chance of survival for males in the erstwhile USSR. (this meant 52/100 died).




Canada, contributed over a million troops and Australia just under a Million, South Africa gave 300000 and New Zealand about 250000; Canada in Europe and Anzacs mainly in North Africa & Italy and in the Pacific War. South Africa didn't contribute at that level but managed to help in North Africa, Air Force and Naval and also in East African Campaign, considering total British Contribution at less than 6 million, an addition of 2.6 million or 45% is huge numbers.

Talleyrand was very good at keeping his audience - his employers - happy.This meant sometimes putting aside what he really thought and instead telling his French leaders what they wanted to hear, regardless of it's accuracy - a classic trick many Roman writers would recognise. Politics is Politics; one doesn't manage to serve 5 different regimes - all with Very different ideologies - by always being accurate and honest. Talleyrand was a survivor, and to survive he bent with the wind, changing his story to suit the attitudes of the moment. He could not have survived otherwise. In any case, he is but one man, a man of the enemy of Britain at the time. The statement of this one man (a statement that might not have even been what he really thought) is not proof that what he says is the way it was.

Churchill started out as a journalist, his first printed works were in the 1890's. His first history-The World Crisis - an account of World War One, was written in the 1920's, further journalistic articles were written in the thirties, as was his history of the Duke of Marlborough of the 18th Century. His history of World War two was started in 1947 and finished in 1953, for which he won the Nobel Prize for literature, and is respected - despite a bias slipping through here and there - to this day. He went on to write A History of the English Speaking Peoples in 1956 -58, based on his journalist works of the thirties, long after he had resigned from power, when he had accepted reality that he was "past it" politically, due to failing health. To write all of this off as just him "trying to get back in to power " is to completely misunderstand the man and his love of the written word - and in histories in particular.

As for the "Red Commies" - I actually truly believe they largely won the war - and possibly could have done even if America had not joined in - although such a war would have been longer, grimmer and even bloodier than it was.. So you have me completely wrong there. It was your insistence that Britain sat back and let them die while doing nothing about it that I was responding to.The Soviets had displayed their expansive intent in the Baltic and Poland in 1940, and Churchill took note and did not trust the USSR. However he was also observant enough to realise that without the USSR in the war, there was little to prevent Germany taking another crack at Britain - and far less chance of winning the war. So despite his misgivings, he made sure to try to help the USSR where and when it was practically possible. At no point did Britain just sit back on the defensive and let the world burn. Also, I can recognise realities, attitudes and politics of the day without actually thinking that way myself. Just because I relate how a historical person or country behaved, it doesn't mean I think that way myself.

If Britain had wanted to keep it's empire - and nothing more - it could have made a white peace with Hitler in 1940. Such a peace was offered to them. Hitler never wanted to fight Britain at all in the first place. The point of joining the war, Poland, was already lost. It's ally France was defeated. Some claimed the war was already over.. At that point only the battles in Norway and France (from a UK perspective) had occurred and there was no real danger to any part of it's empire. Even the scuffles in North Africa were only just starting - a campaign of Italy vs Britain that Britain was actually winning in those first few months. The Battle of Britain happened, in which the RAF foiled the Luftwaffe. Triumphant in the Battle of Britain, winning in North Africa, the UK could have pulled out of the war, while maintaining some dignity (they could have claimed to anyway). But they didn't. Instead, Britain fought on. It went onto ever worsening rations - that did not end until the 1950's. Worse still, Britain actually went bankrupt around December 1940. It had nothing more in the treasury to support any more war effort. That could well have been the end of it. But again, instead of giving up, it turned to America to help. America supplied the funds, the arms and equipment and many resources needed to continue the war to the end, the Lend-Lease deal. A debt that of course had to be paid back with interest after the war, a debt the UK did not finally manage to pay off until 2006.

Brtain's cities were bombed to rubble - not fully repaired until around the 1970's, the economy was literally bankrupted, the country went on rations until the 1950's and went into debt for the next sixty years, it's superpower status was irrevocably lost - yet you think it did all that just to preserve an empire - an empire that Britain was already actively devolving, that wasn't even in danger from the Germans? You have it very wrong.

1.8% of a population does not sound a lot. Until you realise they were mostly young men in their teens and early twenties. That indeed is the bulk of a generation. There was hardly a street in the Uk that did not know someone who had suffered the loss of their sons or husbands. And that figure does not reflect the immense numbers of maimed, blinded and disabled, and those forever psychologically scarred, that came back from the war. WWI did destroy a generation - one way or another.

Regarding your list of Dominion strengths: Misleading. To take Australia: it raised one million troops, but as I said most of these stayed in Australia to defend it. Japan at one point was in Borneo, next stop Australia, the threat to Australia was very real, so it could spare only a few divisions for Britain to use. The military strengths of the Dominions are not reflective of how much they actually loaned to Britain.

Britain, in the late 1930s, although still with empire (just), was not actually a superpower anymore. It went into the war with everyone thinking that it was - including Britain itself - but the events of 1940 revealed the reality. It's time of dominance was over. A country that goes bankrupt one year into the war, that has to go into debt just to stay involved, is not a country that can field masses of troops and materiel overseas. Britain did fight overseas of course, but due to the constraints it's strength was never very great in any theatre. It is worth remembering also that Britain was never occupied, never had to fight in the streets in defence of it's realm, didn't have it's men used as expendable cannon fodder by it's overlords, so consequently of course, it's war losses are less than other countries. But that's not the same as saying it didn't do it's part. To use casualty figures alone to dictate how much a country was or was not involved in the war is a mistake. Britain did everything it could, everywhere it could. Look on any front and there you will find Britain, either actively fighting or else giving support.
 
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I was expecting this reaction...


This tells you that:
1) In terms of industrialization pro capita Germany was behind the USA and England (women worked MAINLY at home and in the fields)
2) There was a drop in female work participation until when Germany had to scratch the barrel

"Ultimately, the number of employed women in the german industry only rose from 14.6 million in 1939 to 14.9 million in 1944. It should also be noted that the level of employment of women in the German economy (also in an international comparison) before the Second world war was quite high."

The drop was homemade and 9% is not a large drop.
The nazi ideology reduced the women to give births and to homework. Most families had more than 4 children.
Since 1933 the nazis changed the laws and tried to reduce the unemployment of millions of men. So women are forced to stay home. Even with this pressure most women worked.

You can´t operate small farms effectively with tractors.

Many farmers worked in factories and after their work was done, they went home and worked in their farms. So their women had to operate the farms during the workshifts of their men.
Even miners and steel workers in the ruhr valley, had small parcels of land and had animals at home in barns.

The nazis created the working year for young girls (usually 13-14) they had to work on farms, to replace the drafted men.

About the other guys who worked we can´t talk.
 

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"Ultimately, the number of employed women in the german industry only rose from 14.6 million in 1939 to 14.9 million in 1944. It should also be noted that the level of employment of women in the German economy (also in an international comparison) before the Second world war was quite high."

The drop was homemade and 9% is not a large drop.
The nazi ideology reduced the women to give births and to homework. Most families had more than 4 children.
Since 1933 the nazis changed the laws and tried to reduce the unemployment of millions of men. So women are forced to stay home. Even with this pressure most women worked.

You can´t operate small farms effectively with tractors.

Many farmers worked in factories and after their work was done, they went home and worked in their farms. So their women had to operate the farms during the workshifts of their men.
Even miners and steel workers in the ruhr valley, had small parcels of land and had animals at home in barns.

The nazis created the working year for young girls (usually 13-14) they had to work on farms, to replace the drafted men.

About the other guys who worked we can´t talk.
I tried to explain and show that the high number of employed women was due to the backwardness (compared to the USA and UK) of German industrialization. In Germany women had to work in the farms (6 million!) because of lack of mechanization. The Nazi firstly reduced the number of employed women until when the regime had to scrap the barrel.
 
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amalric de g.

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I tried to explain and show that the high number of employed women was due to the backwardness (compared to the USA and UK) of German industrialization. In Germany women had to work in the farms (6 million!) because of lack of mechanization. The Nazi firstly reduced the number of employed women until when the regime had to scrap the barrel.

What did I wrote?
You can´t operate a tractor on small farms effectively. Thats a matter of cost efficiency and if you don´t have fuel for the tractor, because fuel was rationed and mostly for the Wehrmacht, what will you do with your tractor?

Germany was so low on fuel, that they had to invent wood gas cars, trucks and tractors. 500.000 of this vehicles where build from 1935 until 1945. Even some locomotives run on wood gas.

You can´t compare apples and oranges. Germany = low fuel / UK and US = limitless fuel.
 

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What did I wrote?
You can´t operate a tractor on small farms effectively. Thats a matter of cost efficiency and if you don´t have fuel for the tractor, because fuel was rationed and mostly for the Wehrmacht, what will you do with your tractor?

Germany was so low on fuel, that they had to invent wood gas cars, trucks and tractors. 500.000 of this vehicles where build from 1935 until 1945. Even some locomotives run on wood gas.

You can´t compare apples and oranges. Germany = low fuel / UK and US = limitless fuel.
Once more you can't see the point: world industrialization started in the UK and in the USA it went on steroids. Germany started late and developed very fast but in 1936 was still behind. The lack of mechanization in Germany was because of that not because the lack of fuel (Germany has no oil still nowadays).

EDIT
The German army was not poor in motor transport because it had neglected to prepare properly. It was poor because of the incomplete industrial and economic development of Germany itself.
A. Tooze
 
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amalric de g.

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Once more you can't see the point: world industrialization started in the UK and in the USA it went on steroids. Germany started late and developed very fast but in 1936 was still behind. The lack of mechanization in Germany was because of that not because the lack of fuel (Germany has no oil still nowadays).

EDIT The German army was not poor in motor transport because it had neglected to prepare properly. It was poor because of the incomplete industrial and economic development of Germany itself.

A. Tooze

You can´t compare apples and oranges, you have to look on the whole picture. Tooze is right with his statement, but you have to look deeper into the subject.

1. The UK didn´t suffer so much from the great depression, they had their own market at their disposal and limitless resources.

2. The US had also their own market and resources.

3. Germany was even in 1914 ahead of the UK industrialisation. Thats a fact, you can google it.
4. Germany as the other states had to suffer from the great depression, germany even more, because the french enforced the Versailles treaty.
5. As the nazis took power in 1933, 7 Million people had no job. Germany was on the brink of total collapse. Thats the fault of the politicians of the Weimarer Republic, the german capitalists and the french government.
6. Without this near collapse the nazis never ever had a chance to seize power.
7. The nazis run germany from the beginning with nearly no money, all what they did devalued the RM even more.
8. Without enough cash you can´t buy oil or any other resources. So they had to trade machine tools or weapons.
9. The german car industry was not for the mass market, most cars where hand made quality cars for the rich.
10. The nazis froze the wages of the workers in 1933, if you have no money, you can´t buy cars or other luxury goods.

Where is the german market? Germany had to trade with the SU, they had no other option. Even Romania traded until 1940 their Oil to the UK and France.

Thats a simple fact, if you have two different requirements you can´t really compare things.

resource production during the war in million of tonnes:
Britain 1,441.2 coal 119.2 iron ore 90.8 crude oil 0.205 aluminium
Germany 2,420.3 coal 240.7 iron ore 33.4 crude oil 1.9 aluminium
USSR 590.8 coal 71.3 iron ore 110.6 crude oil 0.263 aluminium
USA 2,149.7 coal 396.9 iron ore 833.2 crude oil (US numbers from 1941 onwards)

The only state ahead is the US.
 
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You can´t compare apples and oranges, you have to look on the whole picture. Tooze is right with his statement, but you have to look deeper into the subject.

1. The UK didn´t suffer so much from the great depression, they had their own market at their disposal and limitless resources.

2. The US had also their own market and resources.

3. Germany was even in 1914 ahead of the UK industrialisation. Thats a fact, you can google it.
4. Germany as the other states had to suffer from the great depression, germany even more, because the french enforced the Versailles treaty.
5. As the nazis took power in 1933, 7 Million people had no job. Germany was on the brink of total collapse. Thats the fault of the politicians of the Weimarer Republic, the german capitalists and the french government.
6. Without this near collapse the nazis never ever had a chance to seize power.
7. The nazis run germany from the beginning with nearly no money, all what they did devalued the RM even more.
8. Without enough cash you can´t buy oil or any other resources. So they had to trade machine tools or weapons.
9. The german car industry was not for the mass market, most cars where hand made quality cars for the rich.
10. The nazis froze the wages of the workers in 1933, if you have no money, you can´t buy cars or other luxury goods.

Where is the german market? Germany had to trade with the SU, they had no other option. Even Romania traded until 1940 their Oil to the UK and France.

Thats a simple fact, if you have two different requirements you can´t really compare things.

resource production during the war in million of tonnes:
Britain 1,441.2 coal 119.2 iron ore 90.8 crude oil 0.205 aluminium
Germany 2,420.3 coal 240.7 iron ore 33.4 crude oil 1.9 aluminium
USSR 590.8 coal 71.3 iron ore 110.6 crude oil 0.263 aluminium
USA 2,149.7 coal 396.9 iron ore 833.2 crude oil (US numbers from 1941 onwards)

The only state ahead is the US.
1) Can you please mention your sources?
2) Do you realize that Germany had more inhabitants therefore YOU are comparing apples with oranges as the figures must be presented pro-capita?
 

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1) Can you please mention your sources?
2) Do you realize that Germany had more inhabitants therefore YOU are comparing apples with oranges as the figures must be presented pro-capita?

Sure i can give you my sources.

"In 1913 Germany had overtaken with 14.8% the United Kingdom (13.6%) and was behind the US (32%) in second place. When trading, Germany was in 1913 slightly behind Great Britain and ahead of the US. Similarly positive was the development of the GNP during the Empire."
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hochindustrialisierung_in_Deutschland

The point is, germany was behind the UK and US, but what you don´t understand is, germany could easily outproduce the UK (and outproduced the UK during the war), if they had the market and the resources for their products. Without a market what will you do with the produced goods?

If you didn´t have a market and resources, a industrialisation like the UK and US did, makes no sense. Thats the point.

One example the Ju 88 needed in 1939 100.000 working hours, in 1943 only 7.000. Germany was able to massproduce goods.

https://books.google.de/books?id=a1...AEIJTAC#v=onepage&q=Ju 88 Arbeitszeit&f=false

Armor potential in 1937:
USA 41,7 %
Deutsches Reich (without Austria and Czechs) 14,4 %
Sowjetunion (Russland) 14,0 %
Großbritannien 10,2 %
Frankreich 4,2 %
Japan 3,5 %
Italien 2,5 %
total of world production 90,5 %



You can do the math yourself. Germany with Austria, Sudetenland and Alsace-Lorraine 76 Million people. SU 130-160 million (depending on source). US 113 million. UK 48 million.

Even a per capita comparrison falls short, how could i compute the soldiers etc. in, germany 18 million, UK 3.5 army only (i found no numbers for the airforce and the navy) and so on.
Or how could you compute the falling production rate of the german coal mines late in the war, because the miners hadn´t enough to eat? Or the bombing of germany?
Or how could i compute the commonwealth resources and manpower in, who worked for the UK?
 
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Sure i can give you my sources.

"In 1913 Germany had overtaken with 14.8% the United Kingdom (13.6%) and was behind the US (32%) in second place. When trading, Germany was in 1913 slightly behind Great Britain and ahead of the US. Similarly positive was the development of the GNP during the Empire."
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hochindustrialisierung_in_Deutschland

The point is, germany was behind the UK and US, but what you don´t understand is, germany could easily outproduce the UK (and outproduced the UK during the war), if they had the market and the resources for their products. Without a market what will you do with the produced goods?

If you didn´t have a market and resources, a industrialisation like the UK and US did, makes no sense. Thats the point.

One example the Ju 88 needed in 1939 100.000 working hours, in 1943 only 7.000. Germany was able to massproduce goods.

https://books.google.de/books?id=a1XpBQAAQBAJ&pg=PA187&lpg=PA187&dq=Ju 88 Arbeitszeit&source=bl&ots=GDKE9H1DND&sig=kYMVDAW3m1RHvmGG4-cf84Lj33Q&hl=de&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiljuWm7MrLAhXIO5oKHWSGA5wQ6AEIJTAC#v=onepage&q=Ju 88 Arbeitszeit&f=false

Armor potential in 1937:
USA 41,7 %
Deutsches Reich (without Austria and Czechs) 14,4 %
Sowjetunion (Russland) 14,0 %
Großbritannien 10,2 %
Frankreich 4,2 %
Japan 3,5 %
Italien 2,5 %
total of world production 90,5 %



You can do the math yourself. Germany with Austria, Sudetenland and Alsace-Lorraine 76 Million people. SU 130-160 million (depending on source). US 113 million. UK 48 million.

Even a per capita comparrison falls short, how could i compute the soldiers etc. in, germany 18 million, UK 3.5 army only (i found no numbers for the airforce and the navy) and so on.
Or how could you compute the falling production rate of the german coal mines late in the war, because the miners hadn´t enough to eat? Or the bombing of germany?
Or how could i compute the commonwealth resources and manpower in, who worked for the UK?
You seems to have lost the point of the discussion: We started from the fact that German industrialization was behind the UK and USA that's why for the same land Germany needed more people and could harvest less crops. If Germany had the same development then more farmers would have been available for the industry/army/anything else.

Can you understand now the issue with Germany?

PS
I was expecting this reaction...
On the eve of war 14.6 million German women were working, with 51% of women of working age (16–60 years old) in the workforce. Nearly six million were doing farm work, as Germany's agricultural economy was dominated by small family farms. 2.7 million worked in industry. When the German economy was mobilized for war it paradoxically led to a drop in female work participation, reaching a low of 41% before gradually climbing back to over 50% again. This still compares favorably with the UK and the USA, both playing catchup, with Britain achieving a participation rate of 41% of women of working age in 1944. However, in terms of women employed in war work, British and German female participation rates were nearly equal by 1944, with the United States still lagging

This tells you that:
1) In terms of industrialization pro capita Germany was behind the USA and England (women worked MAINLY at home and in the fields)
2) There was a drop in female work participation until when Germany had to scratch the barrel
 
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Cresilia

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There was no referendum on joining the WWII, the government didn't ask for the opinion of Canadians. The same happens with regards to conscription laws: the government rules.

Frankly you have no idea what you are talking about.

Mackenzie King (PM of Canada) did hold a plebiscite on conscription for overseas service.

80% of English Canadians voted yes
85% of French Canadians voted no

Conscription very nearly tore the country apart in WWI; King had no desire to repeat this and thus there was no real conscription for overseas service (a few thousand conscripts were sent overseas but even this was deeply divisive).
 

amalric de g.

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You seems to have lost the point of the discussion: We started from the fact that German industrialization was behind the UK and USA that's why for the same land Germany needed more people and could harvest less crops. If Germany had the same development then more farmers would have been available for the industry/army/anything else.

Can you understand now the issue with Germany?

PS

No I didn´t lost the point, you ignore simple facts. How often should i repeat it?

For germany it was not possible to reach the PRO CAPITA level of UK and the USA, after WWI. Why? GERMANY DIDN`T HAD THE MARKET TO SELL THEIR WARES. So it was simple impossible to do it.

Thats the only reason why germany didn´t catch up before 1943 in PRO CAPITA industrialisation.

And i wrote several times, germany had to import fuel for nearly all vehicles with a engine, before the war germany produced 800.000 metric tons of crude oil.

So please explaine me how could germany reduce the needed manpower in the agriculture without importing oil?

So lets talk about the UK:

Leadup to the Second World War
In the 1930s, before the outbreak of the Second World War, the British population was somewhere between 46 million and 52 million.

Britain imported 70% of its food; this required 20 million tons of shipping a year. 50% of meat was imported, 70% of cheese and sugar, 80% of fruits, 70% of cereals and fats, 91% of butter. Of this, 1/6th of meat imports, 1/4 of butter imports and 1/2 of cheese imports came from New Zealand alone, a long ways away by shipping lanes.

Knowing this would lead the Axis powers into hoping to starve the British population into submission, by cutting off those food supply lines.

The British government began planning for wartime rationing in 1936. Should war occur again, this time they hoped to be better prepared based on their experiences the last time around. A Food (Defence Plans) Department was set up as part of the Board of Trade to do the project planning. Ration booklets were printed up in 1938, ready to go.

http://www.cooksinfo.com/british-wartime-food

Germany imported 17 % percent and produced 83 % of her needed food.

UK imported 70% percent and produced 30 % of her needed food.

YOU SEE THE DISCREPANCY HERE?
 
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