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megalos

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It really doesn't matter if the balance is good or not if the play experience sucks.

Right now for most people it obviously does.
I think the setting certainly attract the strategy game crowd, but as long as the multiplayer game is strictly about clicks per minute then they are not going to be queuing up.

If anything, I think the game is too slow to attract a big enough crowd.

Seeing an Axis player make a mistake by not using his KT at max range, then you go balls to wall trying to punish that mistake, only for your TD's do a little pathing dance, then they finally start moving where you ordered them - then they end up getting there 2 mins later... when the Axis player has had a whole 2 mins to correct his/her mistake.

The game is way too slow.
 

Hidden Gunman

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Yes because thats their job! and they played alot of rts games in their lives. But sure they hadnt got the time to analys match making and thats where the negative point of this game is. Gameplay is fine in most aspects. Balance is pretty good atm already.
Are you talking of game player reviews, or games media reviews? Those are two different things. The media tends to rely on a pre-release beta, and is played single player, with the review largely framed by publisher created infomercial style briefs.
 

hagen_hase

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the game is to big. 21 GB is a clear sign of lazyness...
 

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Simple - it's not fun. I say that with a dismay because I was a big fan of the Wargame series and like some of the innovations made in this iteration (e.g. front lines, phases, LOS tool).

The fundamental problem from my perspective are the wild balance problems stemming from highly asymmetric decks and highly varied maps. I just finished a game playing 3rd armored where I was essentially under constant MLRS spam for the entire game. Considering the map had few open spaces there was essentially nothing I could do to counter this. While in theory imposing unit and income constraints at a division level leads to interesting asymmetrical matchups, in practice I've found this has resulted in unsatisfying easy wins or frustrating losses.

In Red Dragon though the quality of the different decks would vary there were always some tools available to counter an opponent. In Steel Division you better hope you get paired against an opponent susceptible to your division on a favorable map or you're pretty much hosed.
 

Claremont Waltz

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This asymmetry of division design is actually kind of hilarious because in real life, divisions tended to be well rounded and able to handle most situations that came their way. And before the full release, that was honestly the case.

Then with full release came the cancer divisions with their hordes of elite troops. Remember when people complained about Scots because they had a single star of vet on their rifles so Eugen basically wiped them out?

Pepperidge farm remembers.
 

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This asymmetry of division design is actually kind of hilarious because in real life, divisions tended to be well rounded and able to handle most situations that came their way. And before the full release, that was honestly the case.

Then with full release came the cancer divisions with their hordes of elite troops. Remember when people complained about Scots because they had a single star of vet on their rifles so Eugen basically wiped them out?

Pepperidge farm remembers.
scottish have single star on their rifles still and they will wipe floor with 3 fsj easy :)
 

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While in theory imposing unit and income constraints at a division level leads to interesting asymmetrical matchups, in practice I've found this has resulted in unsatisfying easy wins or frustrating losses.

I wonder if the problem is because they don't also constrain the divisions. I mean one on one each division has it's weaknesses, but it usually has some means of mitigating or countering it. However if you take that division and put it up against four divisions able to really capitalise on that weakness then it's obviously going to suffer. I mean even on a 4 v 4 game, if you have just one player who's using a division that's weak against armour and on the other side all four players take armoured divisions then the match is effectively a 3/3.5 vs 4.
Balance wise it'd probably make sense to restrict how many of each type of division can be on a team. Wouldn't really help the multiplayer situation though - you'd probably just get a whole bunch of players refusing to participate in a match unless they can be their favourite division.
 

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At first, I would like to say, that this seems to be one of the first threads about general improvments, which really looks resonable and does not end in a trench war between competitive players and 10vs10 players or some mindless dev bashing (with a few exceptions of course). :)

Personally I like the game and do not really have big issues with it. Of course there are some smaller complaints, which could be improved in my opinion. E.g.:
  • Still too much arty on the field. Although it already improved
  • Division/unit balance not perfect. But general balance of Axis vs. Allies seems ok for me (and better then wargame 1 month after release)
  • Fighters failing to kill ducks, because the fighter is too fast and cannot reduce speed is meh
  • Phase system is a cool idea. But I would prefer, that both sides would get strong division for every phase. Instead of having Allies dominate A and Axis dominate C
  • Make medium tanks great again!
The main issue is the drop of the player base at the moment. And I think the biggest problem is, that the game is not really noob friendly. Reducing complexitiy is no option, because the complexity is a core part and makes the game interessesting. Some proposals I have:
  • Add more single player content. Especially for lower skill levels. This does not need to be a full campaign. Something like a HowTo for single divisions might be enough. E.g. for Axis this could be two scripted single battles. One were you need to defend with the Eichenlaub and one were you need to attack with the Panzer Lehr. Include intermediate briefings to give tipps. And add some historical background to make it more motivating then a tutorial.
  • Allow dedicated servers to set a maximum experience level (or maybe also a minimum) to have newbie only servers, where they can learn
  • A really cool feature would be an autobalance option for lobby games. This could combine advantage of matchmaker with those of lobby.
  • Make the game mechanics more transparent. Most people do not search on reddit for informations, which some modder has extracted from the game files. But if they does not do it, they will never understand why they are crushed by the crit fest of a 20mm rush.
  • Less toxic community: Would be nice, if some good players would use less time to insult 10vs10 players as clowns and instead better write some guides, to show a new player how he can kill a KT or be good in 1vs1. (I hope the last sentence will not again trigger flaming in this thread)
There are are more issues, which make the game hard to handle for new and casual players. But I have no idea how to improve them without making the game bad for more experienced players (which I do not want to):
  • Phase system: Basically it means, that a new player needs to learn directly to play 3 different games instead of one, because the tactics are often quite different in the different phases.
  • Lack of simple defense tactics: In RD it was quite easy to dig in with some Milan-teams and defend a sector. Playing defensivly often allowed to have a nearly even K/D vs. much better players. You do not win, but you also do not get steamrolled. In SD conquest mode (which is imho the much better mode compared to destruction) you usually have to push forward, which is more difficult to learn.
 

Claremont Waltz

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Ok, so I actually really like a lot of things about this game and have held back on really criticising the many poor decisions Eugen made. But after the recent total collapse in player numbers and the ongoing snore fest that is 1v1, I think I finally ought to share the stuff I'm concerned about.

See, the thing is even a basic defense is actually really tough to beat for a new player launching clumsy attacks. That's true even though for an experienced player this game might actually favor the attacker in some circumstances thanks to all the offmap and artillery and whatnot allowing you to nut all over a position and then walk in and surrender everything. Or completely ignore it and go around because haha puny infantry AT range. New players, meanwhile, get fucked by the surrender mechanic coming and going. Either their attacking units mass surrender in a big blob or their defending units get crapped on from the sky and then surrendered in a big blob without them ever understanding just what the hell is going on because Eugen spent a ton of money on voice actors to have them sing stupid songs and make dumb jokes rather than paying for unit barks that explain what is going on in the game as in CoH2/DoW2. I don't know what the hell Tipperary is but at this point I'd have no problem firebombing it tbh.

For new players the micro floor is enormous because there aren't any effective low micro strats like the mech infantry hordes you could go with in RD. Low unit availability and low income (both relative to WRD) mean that new players are doubly hammered as they can't afford to spam and they lack the deep availability base necessary to sustain spam. WRD had more infantry and tanks in a single card than some decks can bring in total, for example. Even good players routinely run out of infantry in competitive games. Without some easy to hit on low micro entry level strat these guys and gals ditch the game early because they feel like dead weight and get utterly stomped against players who have achieved the base level of competency.

The KT is the ultimate new player slayer. They send their tanks into it from the front in endless numbers and then completely fail to understand why they all die. They also never figure out how to kill it because Eugen failed to provide vital at-a-glance info about side and rear armor on the display like they did for front armor (which, for the KT, is a new player demoralizing number that has straight up caused some to surrender on seeing it) or anything at all about AP scaling except in one easily overlooked tool tip. If you're going to build the core of your game around a critical mechanic like AP scaling, you need to shout that shit from the rooftops. It should be on every other loading screen, and there should be unit barks that say something to the effect of "we can't penetrate their armor at this range, we need to get closer to hit them effectively" that fire off regularly when units fire on something they have 0% chance of penetrating. BTW, units should straight up default to not fitting at something they don't have at least a 20% chance of penetrating because wow what a stupid micro tax you inflicted on new players for no reason.

It also doesn't help that specialist decks often get and can deploy more tanks or planes on the field while still remaining competitive than non specialist decks can even include AT and AA guns in their deck, sometimes by a factor of two or three. That is straight bonkers.

And then there's the tiny resupply circle for supply trucks. Why? Why would you do this Eugen? I've seen many, many players move a truck near some unit to resupply but because the circle is tiny it doesn't actually start. I've done it myself multiple times. Just why. It is a totally unnecessary additional micro tax that adds zero to the game and I've even seen devs and publishers make it so why is it still an issue.

You'd think that if Eugen decided to make this game somehow tougher for new players than WRD that they'd up the APM and skill ceiling for experienced players to compensate, but they somehow managed to lower that even as they raised the floor. Deck building has been substantially reduced in complexity, tanks are more durable against long range threats, there are fewer units on substantially smaller and less complex maps in 1v1, fuel is gone, and suppy micro and macro has been reduced substantially. And without helicopters, radar AA, ATGM vehicles and other high risk high reward units (at least helps that aren't spammed), there's less need for tight, accurate unit micro overall in a franchise that already had a low APM and skill ceiling to begin with. The removal of movement crits (which from a historical and realism pov is absurd, especially given the setting and the notorious automotive unreliability of Nazi tanks) also removes an additional factor from the game.

So in my opinion SD44 manages to be both more complex for new players than WRD while simultaneously being less complex for established players. This is what led to the precipitous drop in player numbers. And I'm not saying that all forms of complexity for established players in WRD were good. Many were terrible choices eg major water obstacles on competitive maps in WRD or the absurd number of near duplicate or total crap units in decks that added complexity for new players while being utterly irrelevant for experienced ones. Eugen managed to remove a few of the bad and a few of the good sources of complexity, but they didn't replace either with new sources of optional complexity and they didn't remove most of the sources of complexity that caused new players the greatest hardship. Opt in or optional complexity is important in games because it creates a flexible micro environment that allows a player to gradually add mechanics as they become more experienced and develop their game specific APM. Grenades in CoH2/DoW2 are a great example of additional optional complexity. New players rarely use them and in large format games (which new and less competitive players love) they often aren't even a good idea to use because closing to throw exposes units to massed fire. And experienced players can make use of and dodge them in competitive games which adds complexity and counterplay. Lack of grenade use by new players lowers engagement lethality (thereby increasing engagement duration, giving them time to micro) and gives them more resources for the fun, showy and ultimately unimportant when poorly used special powers you get in game. SD44 has plenty of opportunities to create marginal micro sinks of that nature to increase the skill cap, but it has instead opted to create a higher floor.

I still like SD44, but there are so many other decisions I can only describe as bizarre. Like why is historicity of overwhelming importance for tanks and AA and MGs but totally irrelevant for bombers and fighters and AT planes whose accuracy, availability and general effectiveness is way out of whack with reality? Why is range compression ok for tanks and artillery, but range extension for AA totally impossible to countenance? Why is experience so ridiculously potent without coming at a significant cost and awarded in what feels like an incredibly arbitrary manner? And why are all 1v1 maps either choked by a gigantic city and/or hedges or completely empty of all obstacles?

I haven't played the game regularly for a while because I can't stand the enormous design issues that make it a thoroughly joyless experience in 1v1. I did do a few matches after the patch but I found it basically fixed none of my biggest complaints. Maybe the division patch will, but either way I think it might be too late for this game.
 
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Fade2Gray

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Too many King Tigers...
You know, from Wargame you think EUGEN would have learned just how dominating super heavies would be and planned around it. Super heavies dominate the meta in RD so much that the lessons learned from that would have been incorporated into SDN.

Frick! They're on to me!
Suddenly the "Razzmann caused 1939" meme makes sense...
 

dmdelor

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BTW, units should straight up default to not fitting at something they don't have at least a 20% chance of penetrating because wow what a stupid micro tax you inflicted on new players for no reason.

I like the idea of some extra smarts here, although I'd probably add "unless the target is firing or being fired at". The fact that you can suppress something you can't effectively penetrate is great, and also something that helps the super-tanks be slightly less dominant than they otherwise would be.

Yeah, sometimes you don't want to fire to conserve ammo, but as a default I'd usually prefer the extra suppression.

And then there's the tiny resupply circle for supply trucks. Why? Why would you do this Eugen? I've seen many, many players move a truck near some unit to resupply but because the circle is tiny it doesn't actually start. I've done it myself multiple times. Just why. It is a totally unnecessary additional micro tax that adds zero to the game and I've even seen devs and publishers make it so why is it still an issue.

++. Seriously.

Why is range compression ok for tanks and artillery, but range extension for AA totally impossible to countenance?

This, too, although the ranges they do have wouldn't be so terrible if the AA itself was more effective.

On the plus side, I'd say AA's gotten noticeably better via buffing and the bomber suppression nerf than it was at launch. Probably not there yet, but better.

Why is experience so ridiculously potent without coming at a significant cost and awarded in what feels like an incredibly arbitrary manner?

I agree on both counts.

The balancing by availability is kind of a bad idea in general, IMHO, because how much availability you need varies a TON by game settings.

Veteranacy should cost points, and only kind of have a secondary knock-off impact on availability in that more expensive units are generally given lower availability.

Availability, OTOH, should scale positively with map size and income and negatively with player count, with planes and artillery generally scaling up slower because of how well the units themselves scale as there's a bigger map with more stuff on it. It'll probably never be perfect, but the ideal would be to make it so that the game still plays well and a deck still feels about right regardless of what game settings a player chooses to play.
 
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Karlburg

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Spot on for the most part. With the KT comment, I would mostly say that the most newbie-friendly MP mode, 10v10 on 4v4 maps, is the most KT-favorable thing one can imagine. Even on some 3v3s a KT is almost unbeatable;with that level of congestion and almost no maneuver room, a vehicle like that will absolutely dominate. They really need to steer the game toward providing the width in team games, and I think the duellist version of St. Mere, for example, is a really nice first step because it turns a deep, congested map into a wider map with more room to play.
 

facmanpob

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My biggest problem with the game is the difficulty in finding a 2v2, 3v3 or 4v4 in Quick Play or Custom lobby... there were only 356 players in the game at one point last night, it took forever to find a 4v4, and that server crashed halfway through the only match I found all evening...
 

Crotou

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Mar 1, 2017
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If anything, I think the game is too slow to attract a big enough crowd.
Seeing an Axis player make a mistake by not using his KT at max range, then you go balls to wall trying to punish that mistake, only for your TD's do a little pathing dance, then they finally start moving where you ordered them - then they end up getting there 2 mins later... when the Axis player has had a whole 2 mins to correct his/her mistake.
You have the right to be smart and anticipate such possibility and/or push your opponent to do mistakes. If you are only reacting to your opponent's moves you miss something.
 

iamthatiam

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Apr 26, 2017
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Personally I think having too many options is the main problem. They shouldn't have added destruction mode because the game was never designed for that. The problem with Eugen is they try to please everyone and end up pleasing no one. Act of Aggression is a good case in point. Rather than continue development on their original vision, making a unique game with three resources and helping people understand how to play, they decide to create a "Reboot" edition with dumbed down resources. The end result was failure. Now we have another game which was designed for one purpose but being played otherwise (10v10 destruction). The phase system and frontline is pointless in these 10v10 destruction matches.