What is 'Culture'?

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I'm not entirely sure I understand the 'Culture' property of noble characters in CK2. Would not European nobility have been mostly consistent across the continent? I assume they'd have all spoken Medieval Latin or French/Italian to one another and their children. Would they not all be following the same trends, wearing the same clothes, travelling to one another's balls? Does a marker like 'Foreigner' have any meaning in such a context? Moreover, why would the peasants know or even care where their lord came from, centuries before the emergence of popular nationalism?

If someone has a source for how all this actually worked in the Middle Ages - whether culture, origin or language were factors - I'd love to read it. But per my current understanding, I don't think 'Culture' should be a character property in CK2.

 

[Rakonas]

Culture is a variety of things, and medieval culture is most certainly not unanimous. European nobility did not all speak latin (as a first language), and definitely not french/italian. In regards to trends, I'm not really sure, but I doubt they'd be travelling to another country to go to a ball.
Foreigner does have meaning, just look at England, where ethnic/cultural conflict was the norm from the first Anglosaxons to the first Englishmen, Britons fought against Engles and Saxons who were mostly the same religion, Anglosaxons fought against Normans who were the same religion, with culture differences playing a significant part. Peasants didn't really care until the age of Popular Nationalism, but lords of one culture would not appreciate lords of a different culture coming in and ruling them in this era.

 

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I'm not entirely sure I understand the 'Culture' property of noble characters in CK2. Would not European nobility have been mostly consistent across the continent? I assume they'd have all spoken Medieval Latin or French/Italian to one another and their children. Would they not all be following the same trends, wearing the same clothes, travelling to one another's balls? Does a marker like 'Foreigner' have any meaning in such a context?

I dont see how what ground you think that. As most nobility developped their own fashion, their own manners etc... Which differ one from another.

Moreover, why would the peasants know or even care where their lord came from, centuries before the emergence of popular nationalism?

Maybe because the lord would try to impose his culture on the peasants? Why do you think it matters when a lord converted to a certain religion?

Top down system,the lord is top, the rest comes from him.

 

[Raczynski]

I'm not entirely sure I understand the 'Culture' property of noble characters in CK2. Would not European nobility have been mostly consistent across the continent? I assume they'd have all spoken Medieval Latin or French/Italian to one another and their children. Would they not all be following the same trends, wearing the same clothes, travelling to one another's balls?

You seems to be confusing medieval era with the world of 18th century Ancien Regime. I would guess there maybe a two dozens of people fluent in Latin in 1066 Poland, and they would all be clergy, not nobles.

Does a marker like 'Foreigner' have any meaning in such a context? Moreover, why would the peasants know or even care where their lord came from, centuries before the emergence of popular nationalism?

Yes. Read medieval chronicles. You'll find plenty of xenophobic remarks. Poles vs. Germans. Germans vs. Italians. Russians vs. Greeks.

 

[Werther]

You seems to be confusing medieval era with the world of 18th century Ancien Regime. I would guess there maybe a two dozens of people fluent in Latin in 1066 Poland, and they would all be clergy, not nobles.

+1000

 

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Foreigner does have meaning, just look at England, where ethnic/cultural conflict was the norm from the first Anglosaxons to the first Englishmen, Britons fought against Engles and Saxons who were mostly the same religion, Anglosaxons fought against Normans who were the same religion, with culture differences playing a significant part.

I think the invasion of Normandy just goes to show how little culture mattered - it was a dispute between a Norwegian, Norman, and Englishman over a title, not a people or nation. The various dukes and whatnot of England were as likely to fight and usurp each other as they were the Welsh (more so, considering they were in close proximity). It was not until the 19th century that the first efforts were undertaken to suppress the Welsh language, despite centuries of English rule.

Maybe because the lord would try to impose his culture on the peasants?

This never happened in the Middle Ages. Ever. Why would they? They couldn't care less, if taxes were paid. Only in the 18th/19th centuries did nationality politics begin to play a role.

Why do you think it matters when a lord converted to a certain religion?

Religion is different from culture. Religious identity undeniably played a vast role in the era, but nations/cultures just didn't.

European nobility did not all speak latin (as a first language), and definitely not french/italian.

As most nobility developped their own fashion, their own manners etc... Which differ one from another.

I would guess there maybe a two dozens of people fluent in Latin in 1066 Poland, and they would all be clergy, not nobles.

Yes. Read medieval chronicles. You'll find plenty of xenophobic remarks. Poles vs. Germans. Germans vs. Italians. Russians vs. Greeks.

Do you have sources for those claims? I'm interested in this topic, and I'd love to get a look at some modern historical scholarship about this. I don't think cultures were completely uniform, but among Christian nobility in continental West/Central Europe, I would assume they were completely negligible.

 

[Arizael]

Culture definitly mattered amongst nobility. Just look on the conflicts between anglosaxon nobles and William.

The more important thing is how does it work in the game. What does influence the culture of a person? I was getting german mayors and biscups in bohemians provinces. Also I've had italaian marshall who's parents were saxon and polish!

What are the possibilities of culture changing? You can change to liege's culture for 50 prestige, but sounds quite unrealistic and I hope the ai won't use it too much (don't want to see german Italy).

 

[unmerged(169164)]

This never happened in the Middle Ages. Ever. Why would they? They couldn't care less, if taxes were paid. Only in the 18th/19th centuries did nationality politics begin to play a role.

Religion is different from culture. Religious identity undeniably played a vast role in the era, but nations/cultures just didn't.

Too much modern perception.

What has nationality to do with culture?

The distinction between culture and religion is the bit to be discussed. It is a modern conception. In the middle ages, no ground to dissociate culture from religion.

 

[Maginor]

Too much modern perception.

What has nationality to do with culture?

The distinction between culture and religion is the bit to be discussed. It is a modern conception. In the middle ages, no ground to dissociate culture from religion.

Because you need something that is more refined than religion. And if a spaniard converts to islam, it would not be right to call him mahgreb. At least not right away.

 

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I did not imply something else. If one wants to go the historical path, that is the distinction between culture and religion that is to be discussed.

As not calling him right away a maghreb, by whom, not right for whom? I wonder. Once again, it smells of something else, something more modern.

For gaming purpose, the distinction is required.

 

[RhoDaZZ]

Culture in the Middle Ages was a matter of, the way I see it:

Religion

[Which realm you belonged to:]

Language

Customs

Laws

Traditions

Fashions


To argue that these things were non non-existent is simply false. To argue that they resemble the nationalism of the 19th century, likewise. However, arguing that they were less significant factors in determining the preferences of the people who lived in the period compared to the overall influx of regional European culture and religion might have some truth in it.

Personally I find it to be adequately accurate, since it's pretty much a cosmetic thing with a few balancing effects in the game (i.e. you won't have people of a foreign culture voluntarily asking becoming your vassals).

 

[Hroppa]

Read some chronicles talking about 'the Welsh', 'the Bohemians' etc. Definitely something perceived to be relevant (although I get the feeling that the nobility cared more about it than the peasantry).

 

[Nuril]

No matter what arguments are presented in this thread (and I think there's good reason for there being a culture mechanism) there's an undeniable gameplay reason for it nonetheless: Names.

The game would be a travesty in the personal politics arena if there was just one huge list of names for all of Europe instead of appropriate localized ones.

I think the invasion of Normandy just goes to show how little culture mattered - it was a dispute between a Norwegian, Norman, and Englishman over a title, not a people or nation. The various dukes and whatnot of England were as likely to fight and usurp each other as they were the Welsh (more so, considering they were in close proximity). It was not until the 19th century that the first efforts were undertaken to suppress the Welsh language, despite centuries of English rule.

But the fact remains that there'd be devastating Civil uprisings against the rule of the Norman foreign oppressors basically resulting in genocide in the north. I doubt those "over 100000 dead" were pure nobility.

 

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Read some chronicles talking about 'the Welsh', 'the Bohemians' etc. Definitely something perceived to be relevant (although I get the feeling that the nobility cared more about it than the peasantry).

The nobility definitely did care.

The peasants, only when it mattered to them...

Imagine an Anglosaxon village, whose lord rode off to war with Harold Godwinson, and some months later a Norman guy shows up with a retinue of armed men, telling them (through an interpreter) that their old lord is dead and he's their new lord. There's two ways this can end.

#1: The new lord doesn't respect their traditional free days, he demands service from them on days where they were left alone by the previous lord, he doesn't show himself in public on the traditional holidays to demonstrate that he cares about his people, he thinks he can demand "new" things from the peasants that were normal at his daddy's homeland (think ius primae noctis), doesn't discipline his men-at-arms when they think they can go rape girls and steal from the villagers... This will end ugly, at some point the peasants will flip out, toch and pitchfork style, screaming for the death of the thrice damned foreigner and all his folk, trying to kill every Norman they get their hands on.

#2: On the other hand, if the new lord respects their traditions, doesn't ask too many "new" things from them, leaves them alone on their rest days and shows some respect to local festivitities and village elders, keeps discipline among his men... why should they then care that he speaks only a few words of Saxon, why should they care that in his castle they hold mass in a weird language and dance weird dances to weird music. It doesn't affect them and they get along. Within a few generations the Norman's men will have intermarried with the locals, and the Norman's children and grandchildren will have learned Saxon language and lullabys from their nurses...

 

[Raczynski]

Read some chronicles talking about 'the Welsh', 'the Bohemians' etc. Definitely something perceived to be relevant (although I get the feeling that the nobility cared more about it than the peasantry).

I would add to this Ruthenian Primary Chronicle/Tale of Bygone Years which is full of disparaging remarks about cowardly, treacherous and scheming Greeks

 

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The culture system in this game definitely stinks of modern conceptions. If you had gone to the king of France and told him that he shared a culture and identity with the peasants working his fields he would have pimp slapped you. There were two cultures in Europe at this time: nobility and the rest. Obviously differences in language and customs existed, but I think the importance of culture needs to be toned down. As a Frankish count, I get a hit to relations with my Occitane duke? Really?

 

[Nuril]

The culture system in this game definitely stinks of modern conceptions. If you had gone to the king of France and told him that he shared a culture and identity with the peasants working his fields he would have pimp slapped you. There were two cultures in Europe at this time: nobility and the rest. Obviously differences in language and customs existed, but I think the importance of culture needs to be toned down. As a Frankish count, I get a hit to relations with my Occitane duke? Really?

What about Byzantine sentiments on "Barbaric Franks" vs. Frankish sentiments on "treacherous Greeks" and so forth? Where do you draw the line, since such attitudes were definitely prevalent during the times?

 

[unmerged(75409)]

The Byzantines did pogroms against Italians and other non-Greek when their society started to break down...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacre_of_the_Latins

So please don't claim culture(ethnicity) did not matter. People were not better characters than they are now and they were just as xenophobic as people today.

 

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I would add to this Ruthenian Primary Chronicle/Tale of Bygone Years which is full of disparaging remarks about cowardly, treacherous and scheming Greeks

As for this, and all the other chronicle comments: yes, certainly. But the same could be written about the lord next door, or a disfavoured heir. Scorn was not in short supply. Also, who are they speaking about, exactly? The peasantry? The language group? The nobility? These chronicles tend date to more pre- and proto-feudal eras (still characteristic of much of East Europe well into the Mid/Late Middle Ages), when tribes and clans still played a significant role.

What has nationality to do with culture?

To clarify, I'm using 'culture' and 'nationality' conterminously (since the game's cultures are predominantly nation-based). I would have used the term 'identity politics', but I wasn't sure if that was too academic; I realise not everyone's a native speaker here.

Because you need something that is more refined than religion. And if a spaniard converts to islam, it would not be right to call him mahgreb. At least not right away.

Why not give him some kind of 'Convert' trait? His children would probably be assimilated enough for the cultural distinction to no longer be relevant, especially if sent to be educated by fellow Muslims. I find it very strange that three hundred years down the line, when the family's moved on to ruling the Sultanate of Africa or something, and long since lost Spain to the Reconquest, his heirs should still be culturally Spanish.

No matter what arguments are presented in this thread (and I think there's good reason for there being a culture mechanism) there's an undeniable gameplay reason for it nonetheless: Names.
The game would be a travesty in the personal politics arena if there was just one huge list of names for all of Europe instead of appropriate localized ones.

To be totally fair, all the nobility in Christendom officially referred to themselves in Latin. To decide to call a Bohemian king 'Ondřej', instead of 'Andreas', involves picking up a post-1870s-National-Revival Czech-language history textbook. It even uses a modern Czech spelling that would have been unrecognisable to the man himself (assuming he even spoke Czech).

The culture system in this game definitely stinks of modern conceptions. If you had gone to the king of France and told him that he shared a culture and identity with the peasants working his fields he would have pimp slapped you. There were two cultures in Europe at this time: nobility and the rest. Obviously differences in language and customs existed, but I think the importance of culture needs to be toned down. As a Frankish count, I get a hit to relations with my Occitane duke? Really?

Yup, I totally agree.

The Byzantines did pogroms against Italians and other non-Greek when their society started to break down...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacre_of_the_Latins

So please don't claim culture(ethnicity) did not matter. People were not better characters than they are now and they were just as xenophobic as people today.

I think there's some misunderstanding here, I'm not claiming they were tolerant, anything but. I'm just saying cultures differed too little among the nobility to warrant the kind of relationship penalties that CK2 believes it does. Merchants are not nobles, and the link you gave is far more illustrative of a religious divide than a cultural one.

 

[Nuril]

To be totally fair, all the nobility in Christendom officially referred to themselves in Latin. To decide to call a Bohemian king 'Ondřej', instead of 'Andreas', involves picking up a post-1870s-National-Revival Czech-language history textbook. It even uses a modern Czech spelling that would have been unrecognisable to the man himself (assuming he even spoke Czech).

Ah, I think my post in the "Culture Groups"-thread is relevant to this. It's about being accessible to modern audiences, not being meticulously obsessive about minor historical details.

The groups are obviously meant to shape the world reasonably according to the historical models. At the game start, for example, Danish-Swedish-Norwegian didn't really exist in any real sense. Apart from minor dialectical differences they'd all be a "Norse"-culture. But since they develop differently due to their Political circumstances across hundreds of years they decided to just facilitate that from the get-go.

None of the Scandinavian characters at the game start had remotely the same spellings of their names that you see, as they were still Norse ones like "Knútr inn ríki" not modernized ones like "Knud den Store". It's just more accessible. Runes weren't even replaced by the Latin alphabet yet in the peninsula (See: Lawbook around the year 1300 in Skåne still using them.), so that'd be an indicator to note.