What is badwrongfun? An explaination

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Edmon

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As a game designer myself, I know how tempting it is to fix badwrongfun. But what is badwrongfun? If you keep reading this term on the forums, but have no idea what it really means, then here is an explanation using Google rather than a game, for clarity. I am then going to explain why fixing it could be a dangerous trend for EUIV.

Ever play that game where you type "X is the..." into Google?

A classic example of this is where Google would return "Did you mean French military defeats?" when you asked about victories. Or you'd put "America is the..." and predictably get "... fattest nation on earth" (This is no longer true, by the way but I digress).

This is badwrongfun. It can be defined in the Google case as follows:

1) The system works perfectly
2) The result is the expected result (in Google's case, the most popular or regular)
3) 1 + 2 generates something funny or fun, but is stereotypical, "unintended" or possibly offensive to a certain audience.

Google has fixed the badwrongfun in a lot of their search results now. So for example, if you google "X is the..." where X is a country name, you will get "X is the best", "X is the size of what state", etc as the top results, every single time.

So what is the problem with fixing it? Well, badwrongfun is actually fun.

In the case of games sometimes it is more fun than the actual game.

Sometimes the badwrongfun becomes the actual game.

So I'm going to show my age here and give you a game example now. There was a game in yonder years gone by called Quake. Until this point, most games had some basic scripted physics for big damage weapons, but mostly on flat 2D worlds. Quake was unique in that it was possible to make maps very vertical, over "lots of tunnels" and that knocking people around with grenades and rockets was more readily a thing over doom, where it was possible but irregular.

Soon, "Barrel maps" in doom were created, where you could blow up a barrel and make a chain reaction that'd explode its way through the map. However, in quake, the idea for using explosions to launch the player around like a ping pong ball was becoming a thing. Then Quake II turned up.

In Quake II, it didn't take long for players to realise (which their new found power to jump) that they could launch themselves up the new and more vertical than ever maps to get powerups, dodge shots, etc. This had always been an exploit, after all it makes no sense in the game universe that you could use a rocket launcher like jumpjets (and survive).

Rocketjumping was born. It was badwrongfun to the extreme. But it was fun. Of course, developers wanted to patch it out, but back then developers could not force the issue. No-one would install the patch that took their badwrongfun rocket jumping away and eventually, the developers relented. Realising the game was a better, more fun game with the badwrongfun left in.

The badwrongfun had become the reason to even play the game at all. Now there are games out there that owe their existence to the exploit and badwrongfun that was rocket jumping.

I feel at times that EUIV is walking a dark path, which I jokingly refer to as the "Apple path". When you have complete control over a product and forced updates, like Apple does, it gets all too easy to remove anything you don't approve of. There is a reason why getting out of the Apple updates and firmware is called "jailbreaking". It's like being in a prison where the fun is not allowed because Apple disapproves.

The little "exploits", the "tricks" the clever strategy that is somehow too "clever" gets removed. What you are left with sometimes is a game with no soul, or is simply less fun. Knowing all the gamey tricks is what makes me a better gamer.

After all, is EUIV not a game?
 
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Edmon

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You do realize you can revert to an earlier version? No forced updates.

I think you don't fully understand the scope of my statement. Quake II patches featured a lot of balance changes, map fixes, etc, which people wanted. They would continue to update their game but the players would undo the fix to Rocket Jumping with every patch.

There is no way for you in EUIV to disagree with any particular change in a set, yet still play with all the other improvements. If quake II was like EUIV, rocket jumping would have been fixed in all versions past the first couple, there would eventually be no way to enjoy the new maps, server architecture, new weapons, etc while still keeping rocket jumping in the game.

If I were to pick a hated change in EUIV that has some comparison, the introduction of the 15 year truce was one of the most hated (and still hated) changes, but fortunately everyone has been working around it with the Guarantee exploit.

What precisely do you disagree with?

Most people will only play the latest version of a game because they cannot be bothered to mod the game to a particular version and then get all their friends to do the same. Plus anyone they are trying to introduce or get into the game will likely play only the latest version.
 
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Boiled down, you're saying Paradox shouldn't remove exploits from EU4 because it can make you do better, often unreasonably better?

Yeah, no.
 
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We really have diferent concepts of fun. You should add "to me" after every "fun" word you have wrote.

The game must be balanced, fixed, and there should not be posible any type of exploit, bug etc..

If you want this type of "fun", its your personal like and you can always cheat or use mods.
 
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I think you don't fully understand the scope of my statement. Quake II patches featured a lot of balance changes, map fixes, etc, which people wanted. They would continue to update their game but the players would undo the fix to Rocket Jumping with every patch.

There is no way for you in EUIV to disagree with any particular change in a set, yet still play with all the other improvements. If quake II was like EUIV, rocket jumping would have been fixed in all versions past the first couple, there would eventually be no way to enjoy the new maps, server architecture, new weapons, etc while still keeping rocket jumping in the game.

If I were to pick a hated change in EUIV that has some comparison, the introduction of the 15 year truce was one of the most hated (and still hated) changes, but fortunately everyone has been working around it with the Guarantee exploit.

What precisely do you disagree with?

Most people will only play the latest version of a game because they cannot be bothered to mod the game to a particular version and then get all their friends to do the same. Plus anyone they are trying to introduce or get into the game will likely play only the latest version.

You realize mods are a thing?
 
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Instead of addressing my detractors individually, of which I am expecting to be the vast majority of players (players typically do not understand what they want, why a game is fun,or just rush to defend "attacks" on things they like, etc. It's like that episode of the Simpsons about "The Homer" car). I will instead ask you these questions:

1) Was rocket jumping an exploit?

2) Did it make the game Quake more or less fun?

3) Was there an entire industry then built around what was originally an exploit the developer didn't like and tried to fix?

4) Are you aware that children like to change the rules of games when they lose them in clever and/or unforseen ways and this is effect is built into us mentally unless we try to resist it? Yet, creating the unforseen loss in the other player is at the very core of what makes a strategy game fun?
 
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To be totally honest your tone, whether intentional or otherwise, sounds rather patronizing. There are numerous mods and cheat codes available that people make use of when it feels appropriate to them. Sometimes I do that to get around AI reactions to events that seem particularly stupid to me. In other words I do it when it's fun for me. I don't really see a point to your rant other than to lecture Paradox and the community of players. It's not always easy though to judge intent in online interactions so I'll just leave it at that and toddle off to work now.
 
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Instead of addressing my detractors individually, of which I am expecting to be the vast majority of players (players typically do not understand what they want, why a game is fun,or just rush to defend "attacks" on things they like, etc. It's like that episode of the Simpsons about "The Homer" car). I will instead ask you these questions:

1) Was rocket jumping an exploit?

2) Did it make the game Quake more or less fun?

3) Was there an entire industry then built around what was originally an exploit the developer didn't like and tried to fix?

4) Are you aware that children like to change the rules of games when they lose them in clever and/or unforseen ways and this is effect is built into us mentally unless we try to resist it? Yet, creating the unforseen loss in the other player is at the very core of what makes a strategy game fun?

Are you saying the vast majority of players dont know what they want and what is fun for them? Of course you know right? You are my hero.

Trying to use the Rocket Jumping simile to argue that Paradox should leave the exploits in their games is extremely simplistic and absurd.
 
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To be totally honest your tone, whether intentional or otherwise, sounds rather patronizing. There are numerous mods and cheat codes available that people make use of when it feels appropriate to them. Sometimes I do that to get around AI reactions to events that seem particularly stupid to me. In other words I do it when it's fun for me. I don't really see a point to your rant other than to lecture Paradox and the community of players. It's not always easy though to judge intent in online interactions so I'll just leave it at that and toddle off to work now.

Who wants to play a competitive game with someone who is using "cheats and mods"?
 
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Are you saying the vast majority of players dont know what they want and what is fun for them? Of course you know right? You are my hero.

Wiz actually said the exact same thing, I believe in a topic about terrible rulers and having more control over them.
 
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4) Are you aware that children like to change the rules of games when they lose them in clever and/or unforseen ways and this is effect is built into us mentally unless we try to resist it? Yet, creating the unforseen loss in the other player is at the very core of what makes a strategy game fun?

You know, there's an exploit in Monopoly (a horrible game, never play it) that this reminds me of. There are about thirty houses in the box. A player can build houses on their properties if they own all properties of a certain colour (two to three properties per color) to increase their value. Once all properties of the same colour have four houses, no more can be built, but instead the houses can be upgraded into a larger red hotel and be returned to the box. The rules stipulate that no more houses may be built if there aren't any remaining in the box, so a player with the cash to build may have to wait for other players to upgrade their houses into hotels first.

The problem? While upgrading to hotels is beneficial, Monopoly is a (horrible, never play it) competitive game, so harming your rivals benefits you. Nothing in the rules forces a player to upgrade their houses - therefore the best strategy to the otherwise rather luck-based Monopoly is to get two or three color-coded areas as fast as possible and upgrade them with houses - never hotels. This drains the house pool and prevents other players from ever upgrading their properties, securing a victory with near 100% certainty.

I figured this out when I was twelve or something, as we were (regrettably, as the game is horrible) playing Monopoly with my family. I used the trick, and felt clever. Figuring the strategy was fun, I guess, although most of them regarded me as abusing a loophole rather than making any meaningful strategic decision.

The next game we played wasn't fun (even by Monopoly standards). Now everyone tried the house draining strategy, because it was clearly the only one worth pursuing. So with the unintended consequences of the rule, the game became distracted from its original point - instead of buying property, and building and upgrading your houses, it became simply a race to drain the house pool after which the game was practically decided.

Since Monopoly isn't a game of high strategy, this is hardly a big deal for me. However, similar situations happen in lots of other games too. For example many RTS games have varied factions, intricate tactical options and specialized units, but have an optimal strategy as simple as building a ton of generic tanks and using the massive force to stamp your enemy before they do the same to you. Your claim of these strategies being "unforeseen" is foolish - an overpowered strategy is not going to be a rare sight or anything, but rather it usurps all other strategies by making them unable to compete. They're not pinnacles of strategic thought, except maybe for the first time, after which they're merely tricks you're repeating for easy wins. Granted, they often require a certain amount of skill (micromanagement and mouse-fu, as I like to call it) to execute properly, but that's not a matter of strategy but execution.

Removing avenues to such no-brainers isn't making the game any less fun, in fact it's putting back the strategic element which requires actual responsive thinking, instead of having one successfully play the same housedrain/tankrush/whatever over and over again. Compare with your rocket jump example - it's a handy tactical addition, but it won't win the game for you if you don't have any actual skill.
 
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This is pretentious malarkey. Granted, I potentially agree with you, but you're spouting so much theory without a single EU4 example that I have no idea if I even want to. Can you breakdown what -- in your eyes -- constitutes badwrongfun in EU4 and what doesn't?
 
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Your history of rocket jumping would be far more complete if you'd played Marathon. We were doing grenade jumps before quake was a twinkle in Id's eye.
 
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Edmon

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Removing avenues to such no-brainers isn't making the game any less fun, in fact it's putting back the strategic element which requires actual responsive thinking, instead of having one successfully play the same housedrain/tankrush/whatever over and over again. Compare with your rocket jump example - it's a handy tactical addition, but it won't win the game for you if you don't have any actual skill.

Do you consider these a "no brainer" or something "that won't actually win the game for you unless you have skill"?

> 5 year truces.
> Vassal(s) via conquest.
> Taking land you can't core.
> Deliberate Civil War to ditch a bad ruler.
> Taking land against a coalition.
> Deliberately making yourself a protectorate.
> Selling your army to incite the AI to attack you, then making and calling allies in.
> Using rebels to reset stability and WE
> Developing the land of a nation with vast cores in yours using all your mana, then releasing them and playing as them and attacking yourself?

And btw, nothing was stopping you from starting a bidding war every time someone wanted to buy a house in monopoly. You could then force them in a game of deadly monopoly chicken, to pay through the nose for their houses.
 
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kviiri

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Do you consider these a "no brainer" or something "that won't actually win the game for you unless you have skill"?

No, I was arguing more against the general principle of your claim that changing rules to remove overpowered methods undermines the strategy. I think the opposite is true.

As for your list, some are points I agree with. But others are cheesy methods that abuse poorly defined conditions in the rules and I'm glad to see them gone. The protectorate thing, for instance, was immensely broken from both gameplay and historical realism standpoint.
 
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Edmon

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No, I was arguing more against the general principle of your claim that changing rules to remove overpowered methods undermines the strategy. I think the opposite is true.

As for your list, some are points I agree with. But others are cheesy methods that abuse poorly defined conditions in the rules and I'm glad to see them gone. The protectorate thing, for instance, was immensely broken from both gameplay and historical realism standpoint.

If you didn't master Rocket Jumping, you would lose consistantly to someone who had. So, as far as strategies go, it was "overpowered" was it not? It was definitely optimal.

So it meets everything you'd argue is necessary for something to be removed:

1) Optimal.
2) Overpowered.
3) Exploititive.
4) Necessary to do/master to win.
 
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Pornek

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Its actually more fun to win the game, as in getting the achievement, without taking advantage of every possible AI "mistake" or loophole imo.

I remember an irish exodus game when going bankrupt didnt reset colonial growth. I basically had the entire new world colonized after my 1st colony. Never finished that game, was boring as hell.
 
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kviiri

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If you didn't master Rocket Jumping, you would lose consistantly to someone who had. So, as far as strategies go, it was "overpowered" was it not? It was definitely optimal.

So it meets everything you'd argue is necessary for something to be removed:

1) Optimal.
2) Overpowered.
3) Exploititive.
4) Necessary to do/master to win.

Rocket jumping can't be called an "optimal strategy" because it isn't a strategy at all. It's a tactic, and a very helpful one, possibly even a gamechanger. But it doesn't negate strategy and skill like many of your examples do.
 
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Ameron

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You know, there's an exploit in Monopoly (a horrible game, never play it) that this reminds me of. There are about thirty houses in the box. A player can build houses on their properties if they own all properties of a certain colour (two to three properties per color) to increase their value. Once all properties of the same colour have four houses, no more can be built, but instead the houses can be upgraded into a larger red hotel and be returned to the box. The rules stipulate that no more houses may be built if there aren't any remaining in the box, so a player with the cash to build may have to wait for other players to upgrade their houses into hotels first.

The problem? While upgrading to hotels is beneficial, Monopoly is a (horrible, never play it) competitive game, so harming your rivals benefits you. Nothing in the rules forces a player to upgrade their houses - therefore the best strategy to the otherwise rather luck-based Monopoly is to get two or three color-coded areas as fast as possible and upgrade them with houses - never hotels. This drains the house pool and prevents other players from ever upgrading their properties, securing a victory with near 100% certainty.

Going a little OT, that strategy isn't an exploit or a loophole. The ruleset clearly states that you can't build houses if there aren't any available, so it's logical to try to monopolize them to avoid other players competition. Point is, unless you're unbelievably lucky, you can't use all of 30 houses on your own, so most of the players on the table are going to develop their properties; actually, most players will build hotels anyway, because they'll be unable to own enough properties to drain the house pool.
 
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