What is a good jungle division or corps ?

[BrianV]

Playing as Germany I launched operation "El Loco de burro" the invasion of South America. However I shipped my best troops to cayenne namely the Waffen-SS and cavs, to my amazement they performed very poorly. I have to re-do my strategy and start from scratch. Anyone have any good mixes of troops to slog through the jungle?

 

[Viktor_Vertex]

Marines and engineers, i think.
MAR x3(or 4)+ ENG. Should be sufficient for anything they meet in south america.
That being said, MTN won't disappoint you either.

Said by someone who used ARM ARM MOT ENG TD to do conquest in China(went well, since you need few of them because the locals can't fight them so you only need to reach the VP's)....

 

[Pugmak]

Logistics flow is one of the nightmares of bad terrain fighting. Also, you'll be limited to what log can be pumped through the local ports.

You might want to try 2x Mar brig divs without support or eng to see if they've got the mustard enough to beat the local forces. The leaner you can keep your force, the easier it'll be to keep it fed.
I'd also think about putting some weight on Log Wiz generals at corps and army level and Commando at div.

 

[Viktor_Vertex]

Logistics flow is one of the nightmares of bad terrain fighting. Also, you'll be limited to what log can be pumped through the local ports.

You might want to try 2x Mar brig divs without support or eng to see if they've got the mustard enough to beat the local forces. The leaner you can keep your force, the easier it'll be to keep it fed.
I'd also think about putting some weight on Log Wiz generals at corps and army level and Commando at div.

I dislike the idea of binary divisions since there WILL be fighting, but if you are smart those fights can be short... In South America, most countries can be made to capitulate with naval invasions only therefore strong MAR divisions are better... And the supply situation can support a few of those divisions...

Anyhow, I think that OP didn't know this, but MAR have a bonus (as in reduced penalty) on jungle terrain.

 

[BrianV]

Thanks, Would mixing marines with mountain infantry be a good mix? Marines bonus for jungle and mountain inf for forests and woods Would they work good together in the same division?

 

[Viktor_Vertex]

I don't think so though you might give it a try. I suggested MTN because of their low supply consumption and in the west mountain terrain. Tho PARA is even better supply wise...
By the way, Venezuela has a 110 oil province and probably huge supplies of crude waiting to be annexed...Just letting you know .
Oh and beware, your convoys will get rekd by British and USA navy

 

[CrasherZZ]

Marines can also move and attack over rivers and marshes with less penalty. Unless you want to get the combined arms bonus, mixing different types of units just dilute the special advantages of each type of unit. MTN and PAR should never be mixed with other types of units. ENG give MAR a bonus in island battles and helps all units with river crossings. Regular INF is also good for jungles if you have the Jungle equipment technology.

If you want to get more punch in your divisions in the jungle, armored cars actually do well since they have the lowest fuel and supply requirements of all the "hard" unit types and give a combined arms bonus as well. Attach them to INF or CAV. They especially help CAV to be more viable combat units without slowing them down. AC also have anti-partisan bonus . I actually used light armor brigades with attached AC to help conquer Malaysia and Burma which is all jungle, mountains and rivers.

Air supply also works better with all these types of units since they don't need as much.

 

[Makje]

Most of south Amrica can be taken by Amfib invasions so a good Navy and good Marines divisions (pure Marines, engineers lower your Amfib efficiency) are the best solution.
Besides jungle South America also has lots of mountains so if you need to go inland MNT divisions may benefit you as well (they do NOT have reduced supply usage though, they need 0.67 supply just like INF. MAR need 0.8 supply)

All in all I wouldn't build a lot of Marines or Mountaineer divisions just for South America. Use what you have and if that is not a lot then use plain 3x or 4x INF divisions which have low supply usage and aceptable terrain modifiers.

 

[Oof]

Basically follow the groung rule for combat in areas with poor infra (South-America, Africa, most of Asia):
- Never deploy ARM/MOT/MECH in areas with poor infra, They are a drain on your supplies and fuel stocks.
- Lean as Pugmak posted is essential, so deploy only what you really need.
- Lean also means no add ons (i.e. ART/AT/etc.) These consume more supplies. ENG consume even more supplies and fuel!

3xMAR + ENG or 3xMNT + ENG might work, but do you really need it to defeat the South American countries? I doubt it, unless they get support from one the majors. In my experience conquering minors is pretty easy. Techs arent up to date, low MP etc. This won't be any different in South America. So my recommendation is to use 3 or 2x INF / MAR / MNT.

 

[BrianV]

Basically follow the groung rule for combat in areas with poor infra (South-America, Africa, most of Asia):
- Never deploy ARM/MOT/MECH in areas with poor infra, They are a drain on your supplies and fuel stocks.
- Lean as Pugmak posted is essential, so deploy only what you really need.
- Lean also means no add ons (i.e. ART/AT/etc.) These consume more supplies. ENG consume even more supplies and fuel!

3xMAR + ENG or 3xMNT + ENG might work, but do you really need it to defeat the South American countries? I doubt it, unless they get support from one the majors. In my experience conquering minors is pretty easy. Techs arent up to date, low MP etc. This won't be any different in South America. So my recommendation is to use 3 or 2x INF / MAR / MNT.

Thanks for all the great info, I'll give that a try

 

[uberjedi]

I remember sending a couple of 5xHA through the jungle in africa (in an older version of HOI3).
It took many many months to move them.

 

[Pugmak]

I dislike the idea of binary divisions since there WILL be fighting, but if you are smart those fights can be short... In South America, most countries can be made to capitulate with naval invasions only therefore strong MAR divisions are better... And the supply situation can support a few of those divisions...

Anyhow, I think that OP didn't know this, but MAR have a bonus (as in reduced penalty) on jungle terrain.

I do agree with you against the binary divisions, as a general rule of thumb, but it is something that's also occasionally situationally appropriate.

The biggest problem with an overseas ground offensive is logistics. No way around that issue. In places like south America, the opfor isn't going to be all that advanced, unless it's human played. With the AI in charge of the local opfor, you'll be going up against weak forces that are poorly led.

Binary Marine divisions should be able to cake-walk their way through such opfor.

Not every opfor is going to need, want or require top-o-the-line force structures to kick its arse.

 

[Secret Master]

I do agree with you against the binary divisions, as a general rule of thumb, but it is something that's also occasionally situationally appropriate.

The biggest problem with an overseas ground offensive is logistics. No way around that issue. In places like south America, the opfor isn't going to be all that advanced, unless it's human played. With the AI in charge of the local opfor, you'll be going up against weak forces that are poorly led.

Binary Marine divisions should be able to cake-walk their way through such opfor.

Not every opfor is going to need, want or require top-o-the-line force structures to kick its arse.

Quite right.

In the far corners of the world, logistics trumps firepower. Ask me sometime how I almost lost an entire armored corps to the Soviets in Manchuria. (My only armored corps as Japan.) It was embarrassing, but I learned my lesson.

 

[Mosaic_Hater]

I usually use 3 Marine + 1 Engineer or 4 Marine.

 

[Oof]

Quite right.

In the far corners of the world, logistics trumps firepower. Ask me sometime how I almost lost an entire armored corps to the Soviets in Manchuria. (My only armored corps as Japan.) It was embarrassing, but I learned my lesson.

I'va had similar experiences in North Africa and Asia. No matter how good adn big your divisions are, once they are out of supply org and attrition just kille them of. And the AI ain't that stupid so it will keep on attacking, because you can't, till they are destroyed.

 

[Pugmak]

Quite right.

In the far corners of the world, logistics trumps firepower. Ask me sometime how I almost lost an entire armored corps to the Soviets in Manchuria. (My only armored corps as Japan.) It was embarrassing, but I learned my lesson.

How'd you almost loose an entire armored corps to the Soviets in Manchuria?

 

[Secret Master]

How'd you almost loose an entire armored corps to the Soviets in Manchuria?

Because I was stupid.

More to the point, I had an armored corps on the border and pushed towards Vladivostok when the war with the Soviets started. I had a number of other divisions in Manchukuo as well, so I thought I could just push out ahead and crush weak Soviet opposition (it was 1941, and I knew their officer ratio was crap compared to mine). I tried to do an encirclement of the city with the armored divisions like I'm running the first stage of Barbarossa. Next thing I know, the divisions are all out of fuel and supply, and strung out all over the place. One and two provinces into the Soviet Union, and the supply network collapsed under the strain. I barely extracted the forces in question, withdrew into Manchukuo, and licked my wounds.

Which is why I never run ART, ARM, LARM, AA, AT, or anything self-propelled in that theater anymore for offensive operations (I will stick INF/ART formations or maybe a single ARM division in key cities to defend).

I did something similar as the Soviets one time as well. I forgot that just because I had increased infrastructure on my side of the border, that didn't mean anything once I pushed into Manchukuo and Korea. Watched as some MOT divisions floundered and failed due to my hubris.

 

[Pugmak]

Heh. At least you had an infrastructure excuse.

I got a couple of divisions of armor surrounded and shattered in France (I was Germany) because I outran my fuel logistics as well as let my armor get so far ahead of the inf support that I couldn't break the siege in time.

 

[Less2]

Even if you had infinite supplies, using Armor or motorized divisions in jungles sucks because you're looking at around a -70% attack penalty. Most of them will have huge movement penalties such that they are significantly slower than marines as well. Pure Marine is basically the only good composition to fight with.

One thing you *can* try is an LARM/AC/AC/AC division. It still has horrible attack ability in jungle, but AC offsets most of the movement penalty such that they can still go almost their full speed. Use it strictly for encircling and overrunning your enemies once the marines have fought and won the battles. Keep it at a maximum of 1 or 2 divisions to keep your supply lines lean.

 

[Secret Master]

Heh. At least you had an infrastructure excuse.

I got a couple of divisions of armor surrounded and shattered in France (I was Germany) because I outran my fuel logistics as well as let my armor get so far ahead of the inf support that I couldn't break the siege in time.

Ah, so you're one step away from being Erwin Rommel.

The difference between the Ghost Division and getting wiped out is the time it takes for Maurice Gamelin to screw up the Battle of France.