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permanently_afk

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As others have pointed out, this is a loaded word. I'll go for it in two prongs.
What do others think? Is the game broken? And what defines a "broken" game, is it only if it is not functioning properly?
For someone who had a lot of theory (and practice) in software making put in his head, "broken" is something very specific.

It means that the finished product failed to meet the specifications even partially. It represents a collossal fuck-up with severe recriminations incoming. Depending on jurisdiction, it will open you up to liabilites.

Evidently, this is not the case with HOI4, since it does work. Since quite a few posters on the forums have a background in IT using this word is needlessly escalating and imho the mods should be far harsher in policing it.

Yes, the game has weaknesses. Yes, it feels unifinished on occasion. Yes, the DLC pricing can be subject to debate. But it is not broken. To say so implies either ignorance or trollish behavior.
  • 1) weak AI
    • Will probably be better in time. Not very worried, a few more patches and DLC's down the road, I am sure it will be better.
  • 2) easy game (somewhat extreme)
    • The new sliders do a bit, but not enough. I mean, should it even be possible to do world conquest with a minor? In my opinion, this is the most "broken" thing about the game, it has to be a LOT harder, the game needs to be much much more difficult in my honest opinion.
    • The sliders I also feel, is mostly for the AI vs AI - ie. for helping Germany for instance.
  • 3) the game is clearly marketed as a WW2 game - but I have never even once (in hundreds of hours) experienced nothing resembling the real WW2 at all.
    • In my opinion, this is also a "broken" part of the game, however intended it was. But why even have a historical focus option in the game if it is just supposed to be a random game? I have seen many says it is a sandbox game set in the "era of the 30s and 40s and that it is inteded to give a plausible simulation of what-ifs of that time-period" - but why market it then as a WW2 game? Also, how plausible is Svea Rike conquering UK and Soviet?
To adress your beefs with those three points:
  1. AI programming in a fluid environment is hard. It is one of the hardest things to do (the only thing harder is general pattern recog, and thats only because you remove the input limit). They are working on it. They will be forver working on it. There is nothing more to say here, except urging to post in the AI thread and to submit bug reports as applicable. Maybe p'dox should instiute a raffle for good&proper reports.
  2. Thats an extremly subjective point. @Surimi has already detailed why this is a non-point.
  3. And thats the point of contention. Sandbox vs. Simulation. If I want simulation, I'll watch a documentary. It is marketed as a WWII game because the other HOIs were. It is marketed because the main selling point is that you can play *your* WWII instead of the original. In theory, a hands-off-game with historycal foci should result in something resembling WWII. It will never be WWII though, because even in RL history is not deterministic.
 

Broletariat90

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i own the field marshal edition, so a lot of skin off my back. The game launching means nothing when there is zero challenge in an AI that is braindead. the game might as well not launch. Arguing that the game isn't broken just because it physically launches is a meaningless deflection.
Then you made a bad investment of 80 dollars. I'm sorry but it happens. When all expansions included with the field marshal edition are released , hopefully its in a better state.
 
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Paglia

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Hyperbole is one thing, but declaring things to be "broken" because they don't meet your expectations (particularly if your expectations are impossible) or were not designed from the ground up in the way that you want them to be is completely different..


I have a hard time understand why you picked the word "impossible" to define his 3 points.

  • Getting a better AI is not impossibl, but it implies hard work and some degree of imagination. Impossible, definitly not.
  • Too easy : same here, it can be done, with some dedication
  • WW2: the last issue at stake, I'd say that might prove hard given the track they picked of a sandbox game, more than anything else... The too easy part combined with the sandbox approach makes this game as poor as it is now... but once you know it, you can buy it if it meets your requirements.
Probably the real issue is the fact HoI3 was a very good WW2 game and everyone tought HoI4 would be an evolution of this WW2 game and not a sandbox above all game... hence the numerous critics. New players like it, since they were probably not HoI3 players. Old veterans mostly hate it, because of the 3 criterias identified by rjohansen
 

Surimi

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Getting a better AI is not impossibl, but it implies hard work and some degree of imagination. Impossible, definitly not.

Getting a better AI is possible with a vast ammount of work. Getting an AI which can prove a match for a skilled human and which never does anything stupid or immersion breaking is impossible.

Generally speaking, the AI is way, way better now than it was on release. Does anyone care? No. That's because what they want is not a better AI, but an AI which can challenge skilled players like themselves or which never does dumb things. Until that happens, and it won't happen because as mentioned it isn't possible, people will continue to complain about the AI.

The mechanics of hearts of iron 4 are incredibly unforgiving for an AI because playing well involves a lot of things that AIs are bad at. The second I saw pre-release gameplay and encirclements, for example, I simply assumed there was no chance the AI would ever be able to meaningfully react to encirclements because it's pattern recognition. The fact that the AI can do so, even in a limited sense, exhibits a level of sophistication I as a layman genuinely assumed was impossible. I'm incredibly glad to have been proven wrong, but there are many areas in which I suspect I will never be proven wrong. The AI in EU4 and CK2 still constantly, constantly makes mistakes, even years after launch. It is better than it used to be (when I started playing EU4, the AI would never use naval invasions) but it will always make incredibly stupid mistakes.

Now, there are some things which could be "fixed" very easily by just tying the AI to particular pre-packaged solutions. Mods like expert AI work in this way, by forcing the AI to use specific production and "optimal" divisions instead of designing its own, for example, but long term that isn't making the AI better, it's just making it more predictable by tying it to a set of proven strategies which it will simply plod through relentlessly. Maybe in the short term that would be better and might help with the illusion for some people, which is why it's great that mods like that exist, but in the long term it's a sticking plaster.
 

wildbillhdmax01

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Getting a better AI is possible with a vast ammount of work. Getting an AI which can prove a match for a skilled human and which never does anything stupid or immersion breaking is impossible.

Where do you people get this stuff from? I'm truly curious.

I don't think anyone expects an AI that can go toe to toe with a human. We're talking about a basic and competent AI. But if you're telling me that Paradox will never be able to program an AI that doesn't Declare war on Russia with less then 10 divisions on the border, or not send an entire army to the Sahara desert, or even just defend its shores, then it's time to abandon ship. I'm mean I can throw out plenty of examples. Now I'm curious are you defending Paradox or bashing them, because I can't tell? It seems like you're bashing their programming skills...
 

Surimi

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I don't think anyone expects an AI that can go toe to toe with a human. We're talking about a basic and competent AI. But if you're telling me that Paradox will never be able to program an AI that doesn't Declare war on Russia with less then 10 divisions on the border, or not send an entire army to the Sahara desert, or even just defend its shores, then it's time to abandon ship. I'm mean I can throw out plenty of examples.

Let me put it this way..

What level of AI would we need to have to make you unable to provide "examples?"

If you play for thousands of hours and find a single case of AI making basic play mistakes, that's still an "example".

This isn't about a basic and competent AI, this is about having an AI which never, never breaks your immersion, and that's nice as an ideal but it's not going to happen. No other strategy game, even those which have received continuous AI work for years, has an AI which will never provide you with "examples" of stupid or anomalous behavior. Go to the forums for CK2 and EU4 and check the bug reports, you'll find plenty of people providing similar examples. If you're waiting for the elimination of these things before you'll consider the AI to be not broken, good luck. You'll be here a long time.

Now, if the point is that these things are happening more often than they could, or that progress can be made, then sure. I completely agree. But.. and I freely admit I may just be very lucky, I don't see these behaviors exhibited often enough to even begin to make a case that they render the game itself broken or unplayable.
 

wildbillhdmax01

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Let me put it this way..

What level of AI would we need to have to make you unable to provide "examples?"

If you play for thousands of hours and find a single case of AI making basic play mistakes, that's still an "example".

This isn't about a basic and competent AI, this is about having an AI which never, never breaks your immersion, and that's nice as an ideal but it's not going to happen. No other strategy game, even those which have received continuous AI work for years, has an AI which will never provide you with "examples" of stupid or anomalous behavior. Go to the forums for CK2 and EU4 and check the bug reports, you'll find plenty of people providing similar examples. If you're waiting for the elimination of these things before you'll consider the AI to be not broken, good luck. You'll be here a long time.

Now, if the point is that these things are happening more often than they could, or that progress can be made, then sure. I completely agree. But.. and I freely admit I may just be very lucky, I don't see these behaviors exhibited often enough to even begin to make a case that they render the game itself broken or unplayable.
Once again, Where do you people get this stuff from? I'm truly curious.

Where does immersion come into this? I don't think I've seen a anyone who complains AI talk about immersion.

I'm talking about the AI not being able to do the basic. Once again declaring war on Russia with no divisions on the border, sending an entire army to the Sahara desert, not defend its shores, the Germans and italians having a massive never ending conga line of divisions going through the English channel, Japan getting half way through the Second Sino-Japanese War and just sitting there with massive completely abandoned fronts on the Chinese side, suiciding of Navies, etc... etc...

I have absolutely have no idea where you got this "never breaks your immersion" thing.
 

Surimi

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I'm talking about the AI not being able to do the basic.

No, you aren't.

You're talking about the AI occasionally not doing things which would be "basic" if it were a person with human intelligence. For an AI, they are not basic at all.

That is why I'm talking about immersion, because immersion is what an AI is there to provide. It's not there to be a serious opponent, it's there to provide the simple illusion of an opponent. When you see "examples" like the ones you describe, the illusion is broken and you are made aware that the AI is not, in fact, attempting to win the game like a human opponent would.

In every single complex strategy game ever made, the AI does stupid things. Every. Single. One. It's meaningless to throw out examples of this or pretend that never exhibiting this kind of weird behaviour constitutes "the basic". With time and a lot of work these kinds of behaviours can hopefully be cracked down on and some may even be eliminated, but expecting to never have "examples" of bad AI behavior is to expect the impossible.
 
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permanently_afk

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Where do you people get this stuff from? I'm truly curious.
I was tempted to write "basic logic and common sense", but somehow that is probably not the answer you are looking for. The "real" - insofar as non-concrete things rife with unknowns go - is twofold:
  • Personal experience. Many of us may have had the "pleasure" to write "AI"s or agent programs. This was often the most hair raising and strenous task in the whole project. The only thing worse is imho user interaction, since they tend to be both stupid and random while the computer is only stupid.
  • We look at e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deep_Blue_(chess_computer) , then we look at the complexity of chess (which is less than you might imagine. Its actually rather simple, from a mathematical standpoint. That is to say, it isn't NP hard and it is quite possible a dominant strategy exists). Then we look at the amount of work invested for Deep Blue.
    Then, we look at the complexity of HOI4, the team/effort size (consisting of one overworked podcat). From there, we can infere the likely quality of the AI by basic mathematic methods. Since it is bad style to use only one point of data, we do the same with https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AlphaGo for example. Then we penalize podcat a bit since he can crib from those projects. In the end, we arrive at the conclusion that all things considered, the HOI4 AI works pretty well, considering the amount of work needed. Then we resolve to treat the programmers with respect and buy them a few beers, should the opportunity arise.
Thats it. There is no fanboying, or hype.

Two little notes here:
  1. When I say complexity, I mean the total amount of valid game states (i.e. situations where there is no winner or the game has not ended in a draw). For chess thats somewhere in the vincinity of 10^43 with a board of 64 tiles. If you consider HOI4, you'll quickly end up with far more, since even if only counting the majors, you have 8 players. And HOI4 has more than one winning condition.
  2. "Improvement" mods like Nomans Land work by cutting out the problem instead of solving it. If you go down that route, you'll end up with a narrow band of "the AI works perfectly!" but as soon as you leave that band every thing comes crashing down. You script the AI to performance and thereby make yourself a maintenance nightmare (have fun introducing new mechanics) and render yourself vulnerable to sequence breaking.


I don't think anyone expects an AI that can go toe to toe with a human. We're talking about a basic and competent AI. But if you're telling me that Paradox will never be able to program an AI that doesn't Declare war on Russia with less then 10 divisions on the border, or not send an entire army to the Sahara desert, or even just defend its shores, then it's time to abandon ship.
*sigh* cannot you tell the difference between solving a problem and simply not taking it on?
 
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wildbillhdmax01

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No, you aren't.

You're talking about the AI occasionally not doing things which would be "basic" if it were a person with human intelligence. For an AI, they are not basic at all.

That is why I'm talking about immersion, because immersion is what an AI is there to provide. It's not there to be a serious opponent, it's there to provide the simple illusion of an opponent. When you see "examples" like the ones you describe, the illusion is broken and you are made aware that the AI is not, in fact, attempting to win the game like a human opponent would.

In every single complex strategy game ever made, the AI does stupid things. Every. Single. One. It's meaningless to throw out examples of this or pretend that never exhibiting this kind of weird behaviour constitutes "the basic". With time and a lot of work these kinds of behaviours can hopefully be cracked down on and some may even be eliminated, but expecting to never have "examples" of bad AI behavior is to expect the impossible.
HOI3 can do the basic. I can fire up COH1 or 2 and have good AI that can do the basic. CK2, and EU4 can do the same. I've played plenty of games that can.

I'm done talking with you. This is going nowhere.



I don't care, you've gone so far off topic. You're trying to flaunt around your supposed of knowledge on AI.

*sigh* Are you really that narrow-minded? Or can't you tell the difference between solving a problem and simply not taking it on?

@Secret Master @Had a dad It's probably time to throw around some yellow text, or close the thread as this is where it usually descends into insults, and nastiness. It's just a matter of time. This is where it always starts.
 

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It's a bad choice of wording and whoever uses it is being ambiguous. I remember some youtuber video saying "The diplomacy is broken" without any elaboration. It left me too scratching my head. But now I realize where he's coming from.
 

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It is difficult to say from the outside looking in, but I think the main AI issues with Germany could be 'hotfixed' quite easily. Put in a guard that says German units can't embark. Then put in another guard that says German battle plans must originate in German borders.

This would keep them out of Africa/Asia and stop them from suiciding troops into the channel while a more correct solution could be developed. It does also mean they would not be able to sealion, but that should be fine temporarily. I think having their full strength in Europe would help them not lose to the Soviets.
 

Kaosium

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Your problem is one of semantics. "Broken" is a poor word choice and if interpreted literally one would have to say that you are incorrect. The game is not broken in the literal sense of crashing etc.

Mine was. I came to this forum last fall in a furor because I'd bought HoI IV and it crashed roughly every hour of playing. I'd encountered a similar problem with other games, perhaps they were from Paradox too, and I knew all I probably needed was a little program that would do something with the memory allocation or whatever it was causing the problem. I googled for it and found what seemed to be the fix from the brief google description, but was rather irritated to discover I needed to create an account before I could read the entirety of the post which I was pretty sure had the answer I was looking for. I tried to find the information elsewhere and was unsuccessful, so my irritation now boiling over into a rage I created the damn forum account and answered their demands for personal information with whatever came into my head at the time (my birthdate is not accurate and I don't recall what I put down for my name though I considered a phonetic spelling along the lines of FOAD). I had no intention of ever posting on this forum outside perhaps relaying in no uncertain terms just what I thought about companies which released games you couldn't play unless you gave them your personal information to read the fix, but with the game fixed I decided I'd really rather just play the game instead.


You need to instead use words like inadequate or unsatisfactory when making such points.

So to your question: No it is not broken if I answer literally. It is however, very unsatisfying for an experienced player in SP mode, leaving only MP. Fortunately for me I am having a lot of fun with my current MP group.

I think perhaps the game you want is not the game they designed, because this game is indeed satisfying and lotsa fun in single player mode as well, though like you mentioned in another thread about multiplayer, 'house rules' can improve the experience and I find making rules for myself easier than getting everyone else to concur on them. While I agree that the AI needs work and it would improve the experience if Germany put up a better fight against the Bear, I've found you can still enjoy the game even knowing the 'German Question' is likely to be resolved by 1941. That's because the worse Germany does against the Soviets, the more difficult the other stages of the game will be for you because the game moves on to having to take down Japan, do that peace conference, then you can fight a Hot War against the Soviets over Iran, Iraq and Afghanistan. Even playing the Soviets you can still have an engaging experience if the Germans roll over and die because you're still racing the Western powers to Berlin and beyond and once that's settled you still have the Japanese to force to the table, which will require building and outfitting a real navy and invasion force. Then there's that Hot War for the future of the world you can choose to engage in....

I've been playing wargames since I was a little kid circa 1978 when I spent my allowance on War at Sea and played that incessantly before moving on to more involved games like 'Rise and Decline' and the 'Squad Leader' series. When I sold my game collection circa 1999 I had over one hundred games, the vast majority pretty much every (war) game Avalon Hill and SPI ever produced along with later gems like 'Empires in Arms' and 'World in Flames' from other manufacturers. A friend of mine and I spent the better part of our free time for weeks (as I recall) setting up the entirety of the old Europa series on ping-pong tables in his den once, after such a massive undertaking we had little interest in actually messing up what we accomplished by playing it--he eventually glued the pieces together, put it on the wall, and called it 'art.' In my many years since I've managed to put together a gaming group regardless of the environment I was in, starting in elementary school, then middle-school, high school, college, USN, Army National Guard not to mention places I worked at. Point being, liking this game and enjoying it even while it still needs work does not make someone an 'inexperienced' player. There is more to this game than just the war between Germany and the Soviet Union and while I would appreciate a better simulation of that titanic death struggle (implementation of which likely would improve the game as a whole) it is not the be-all and end-all of this game, which scope includes the post-war era as well. I have played many games which depict WWII but few which include the pre- and post-war period and those who are just looking to play the war have many other options to choose from, but playing the entire period is pretty unique in the genre and while I still think the final product needs work it is still engaging on many levels as is. No matter how well or poorly the AI acts it doesn't change whether or not my tech and build strategy got me to where I wanted to be at the outset of the war and I can judge my performance of that against a different standard than whether it prevailed against an AI that still needs work.

There's a lot to this game that a sizable number of the people posting to this site never seem to get to, they're still building basic infantry weapons and expect it all to be done by 1939 and never fill out their tech trees or make the transition to the post-war period. They want something to play 'Command and Conquer' with and it may just turn out that this game will never be what they want it to be. I think many of your observations are valid and an attempt to improve the game, but I also think you're mistaken that enjoying (at least facets of) the game we have now is indicative of an 'inexperienced' player.
 

Dalwin

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Mine was. I came to this forum last fall in a furor because I'd bought HoI IV and it crashed roughly every hour of playing. I'd encountered a similar problem with other games, perhaps they were from Paradox too, and I knew all I probably needed was a little program that would do something with the memory allocation or whatever it was causing the problem. I googled for it and found what seemed to be the fix from the brief google description, but was rather irritated to discover I needed to create an account before I could read the entirety of the post which I was pretty sure had the answer I was looking for. I tried to find the information elsewhere and was unsuccessful, so my irritation now boiling over into a rage I created the damn forum account and answered their demands for personal information with whatever came into my head at the time (my birthdate is not accurate and I don't recall what I put down for my name though I considered a phonetic spelling along the lines of FOAD). I had no intention of ever posting on this forum outside perhaps relaying in no uncertain terms just what I thought about companies which released games you couldn't play unless you gave them your personal information to read the fix, but with the game fixed I decided I'd really rather just play the game instead.




I think perhaps the game you want is not the game they designed, because this game is indeed satisfying and lotsa fun in single player mode as well, though like you mentioned in another thread about multiplayer, 'house rules' can improve the experience and I find making rules for myself easier than getting everyone else to concur on them. While I agree that the AI needs work and it would improve the experience if Germany put up a better fight against the Bear, I've found you can still enjoy the game even knowing the 'German Question' is likely to be resolved by 1941. That's because the worse Germany does against the Soviets, the more difficult the other stages of the game will be for you because the game moves on to having to take down Japan, do that peace conference, then you can fight a Hot War against the Soviets over Iran, Iraq and Afghanistan. Even playing the Soviets you can still have an engaging experience if the Germans roll over and die because you're still racing the Western powers to Berlin and beyond and once that's settled you still have the Japanese to force to the table, which will require building and outfitting a real navy and invasion force. Then there's that Hot War for the future of the world you can choose to engage in....

I've been playing wargames since I was a little kid circa 1978 when I spent my allowance on War at Sea and played that incessantly before moving on to more involved games like 'Rise and Decline' and the 'Squad Leader' series. When I sold my game collection circa 1999 I had over one hundred games, the vast majority pretty much every (war) game Avalon Hill and SPI ever produced along with later gems like 'Empires in Arms' and 'World in Flames' from other manufacturers. A friend of mine and I spent the better part of our free time for weeks (as I recall) setting up the entirety of the old Europa series on ping-pong tables in his den once, after such a massive undertaking we had little interest in actually messing up what we accomplished by playing it--he eventually glued the pieces together, put it on the wall, and called it 'art.' In my many years since I've managed to put together a gaming group regardless of the environment I was in, starting in elementary school, then middle-school, high school, college, USN, Army National Guard not to mention places I worked at. Point being, liking this game and enjoying it even while it still needs work does not make someone an 'inexperienced' player. There is more to this game than just the war between Germany and the Soviet Union and while I would appreciate a better simulation of that titanic death struggle (implementation of which likely would improve the game as a whole) it is not the be-all and end-all of this game, which scope includes the post-war era as well. I have played many games which depict WWII but few which include the pre- and post-war period and those who are just looking to play the war have many other options to choose from, but playing the entire period is pretty unique in the genre and while I still think the final product needs work it is still engaging on many levels as is. No matter how well or poorly the AI acts it doesn't change whether or not my tech and build strategy got me to where I wanted to be at the outset of the war and I can judge my performance of that against a different standard than whether it prevailed against an AI that still needs work.

There's a lot to this game that a sizable number of the people posting to this site never seem to get to, they're still building basic infantry weapons and expect it all to be done by 1939 and never fill out their tech trees or make the transition to the post-war period. They want something to play 'Command and Conquer' with and it may just turn out that this game will never be what they want it to be. I think many of your observations are valid and an attempt to improve the game, but I also think you're mistaken that enjoying (at least facets of) the game we have now is indicative of an 'inexperienced' player.
I was never much of an AH fan but my SPI collection was extensive. I started in 1973. My first title was Year of the Rat covering the 1972 offensive in Viet Nam. That is a game that after having played several different opponents I can still say that I never lost as either side. I did have one Viet Nam vet friend of mine who played the south and held me to a draw. He used some tactics that I had never seen anyone try and for which I had not prepared a response.

I have no idea how many titles I ended up with and most of them are long gone. I would have no one with whom to play even if I still had them.
 

Kaosium

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I was never much of an AH fan but my SPI collection was extensive. I started in 1973. My first title was Year of the Rat covering the 1972 offensive in Viet Nam. That is a game that after having played several different opponents I can still say that I never lost as either side. I did have one Viet Nam vet friend of mine who played the south and held me to a draw. He used some tactics that I had never seen anyone try and for which I had not prepared a response.

I have no idea how many titles I ended up with and most of them are long gone. I would have no one with whom to play even if I still had them.

I can tell through your posts you've been playing a long time too, I just suspect not everyone with experience with wargames is looking to play the same sort of game you are. When I play it out I find a lot of the strategies which would make for a successful 'command and conquer'-style game impede your performance in the long-term and that's something you have to take into account if having to face the post-war Soviet empire--perhaps alone--is going to be a likely occurrence.
 

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I can tell through your posts you've been playing a long time too, I just suspect not everyone with experience with wargames is looking to play the same sort of game you are. When I play it out I find a lot of the strategies which would make for a successful 'command and conquer'-style game impede your performance in the long-term and that's something you have to take into account if having to face the post-war Soviet empire--perhaps alone--is going to be a likely occurrence.
I guess I never really responded to your point disagreeing with my statement that an experienced player struggles to find SP enjoyable in HOI4. I have played many SP games as several countries at this point and many of them are fun for a while, but rarely to the point where getting to the end of the war is not sheer tedium

For me a good WWII game requires one thing above all others and that is that the Russian Front must be an epic struggle. I have been unable to find that as either Germany or Russia no matter how I set the sliders. It is especially disappointing as Russia since Germany never launches a serious threat that drives you back to Stalingrad or the gates of Moscow. Even with Germany on +4 and you playing with the veteran handicaps, holding is easy.

As Germany you can get some challenge from Russia but only because you can set it such that they flood the map with too many units. This buys them time so that you don't swiftly blitz your way to victory. You can still always win because of the AI's inability to balance its production against its needs. It will get huge equipment shortages and its units will become brittle. Victory under such conditions feels more like WWI than WWII.

If I cannot find a satisfactory challenge as either Germany or Russia then I consider SP games to be unsatisfying. I am ok with playing other scenarios for variety, but not playing them as the only viable options. the MP game, on the other hand, can be excellent.
 

Kaosium

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I guess I never really responded to your point disagreeing with my statement that an experienced player struggles to find SP enjoyable in HOI4. I have played many SP games as several countries at this point and many of them are fun for a while, but rarely to the point where getting to the end of the war is not sheer tedium

For me a good WWII game requires one thing above all others and that is that the Russian Front must be an epic struggle. I have been unable to find that as either Germany or Russia no matter how I set the sliders. It is especially disappointing as Russia since Germany never launches a serious threat that drives you back to Stalingrad or the gates of Moscow. Even with Germany on +4 and you playing with the veteran handicaps, holding is easy.

As Germany you can get some challenge from Russia but only because you can set it such that they flood the map with too many units. This buys them time so that you don't swiftly blitz your way to victory. You can still always win because of the AI's inability to balance its production against its needs. It will get huge equipment shortages and its units will become brittle. Victory under such conditions feels more like WWI than WWII.

If I cannot find a satisfactory challenge as either Germany or Russia then I consider SP games to be unsatisfying. I am ok with playing other scenarios for variety, but not playing them as the only viable options. the MP game, on the other hand, can be excellent.

Perhaps I've just played it too many times but I don't find that to be the most interesting campaign of the war, though I understand the attraction.

However I do think that old joke about the peasant mistress and the young Prussian officer talking about Pearl Harbor should be remembered. The officer was boasting of the might of the Axis, the brilliance of the Fuhrer and their clever new allies the Japanese with such an outstanding Navy. He brought out a map to show his mistress where they were from. She looks at the enemies he's scorned, the Soviet Union, the British Commonwealth and Empire and the United States on the map and the relative size of the Axis nations and looks at him alarmed: 'Has your Fuhrer seen this map?'

It may well be that the Axis being doomed to failure is perhaps the most likely outcome of any good simulation of the war.
 

Dalwin

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It may well be that the Axis being doomed to failure is perhaps the most likely outcome of any good simulation of the war.

I have always felt that this is how a good WW2 simulation should be. The Axis goal should not necessarily be to win the war outright, but rather to do far better than was done historically. In a tougher game system, it can be that as Germany if I can get to the end of '45 still holding France and Poland I can be confident that I did well. In HOI anything less than complete subjugation of the UK and USSR before the end of '44 makes you something of a piker. I have never had the patience to take that all the way to conquering the Western Hemisphere as well. By the time USSR falls the game loses most of its interest, add the downfall of Britain and the writing is clearly on the wall.
 

Had a dad

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I don't care, you've gone so far off topic. You're trying to flaunt around your supposed of knowledge on AI.
no, you're just rejecting the information he presented because it illustrates how so many have misunderstanding of AI and AI programming. Since so many people are complaining about the AI, it IS on topic

Also based on the information he wrote, there is nothing "supposed" about his knowledge of AI. While we don't know his skill, I can tell you he has at least theoretical knowledge.

The "real" - insofar as non-concrete things rife with unknowns go - is twofold:
nice write up.